Archer balancing.


  • Mod

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    Here is my updated list
    1. Remove crosshair
    2. Remove backstab bonus on every weapon except daggers and nerf them a bit (especially thrusting dagger)
    3. Stamina drain on drawing an arrow (15 for warbow, 10 for longbow and 5 for shortbow)
    4. Stamina drain on reloading xbows (5 for light xbow, 7 for xbow and 10 for heavy xbow)
    5. Stamina drain for aiming with xbows if you’re aiming longer than 3s (5 for light xbow, 7 for xbow and 10 for heavy xbow)
    6. Unable to shot without stamina
    7. Damage and accuracy with bow are based on how long you are drawing the bow

    This guy! Love the list.



  • Please stop implying that TBS would ever nerf archers.



  • @lemonater47:

    1. If they remove it they have to redo how aiming with bows and crossbows and everything works. Maybe revert to the original crosshair which wasn’t as good. The new one has a dot in the middle the old one didn’t.

    Aim with your arrow/bolt tip.

    @lemonater47:

    2. I’m All for nerfing daggers though the backstab bonus should be available for all secondaries and just be removed from javelins.

    Archer can wreck too much havoc with their small pointy weapons. With this change you either have to chose dagger for being sneaky backstabber or normal weapons for face-to-face fights.

    @lemonater47:

    3. That’s a bit extreme. I was thinking more along the lines of losing say 5 stamina per second for holding your shot. So it kicks in 2-3 seconds after you draw.

    Well, not really. Bows do shitload of damage.

    @lemonater47:

    4. Should happen but the values might need to change.

    I thought about increasing them.

    @lemonater47:

    5. Silly idea really. A crossbow isn’t that heavy so aiming it shouldn’t cost any stamina. How about make it stop regen instead as currently when you aim you can regen stamina.

    You can’t regen stamina when aiming with xbow currently. Do you even know your own class?

    @lemonater47:

    6. Wait a whole second to regen some of that stamina. A pointless change considering that.

    It’s not pointless. People won’t spam arrows carelessly no more and they will make sure every arrow counts.

    @lemonater47:

    7. That’s getting into silly territory again.

    How so?



  • I’m sure you can regen and even heal with the crossbow while aiming. Not with the bow. Though you’ve put doubt in me.

    And have you turned the crosshair off? The tip isn’t where the crosshair is and its not even pointing the way the crosshair is. FOV also puts you off you’d have to lower it tons to be exact. Crossbow its below the crosshair and with the bow its miles off to the side.

    Archer is outclassed in melee also dies in 1-2 hits. I only have issues with daggers because they are different from every single other weapon in the game. Their other secondaries aren’t hard to fight against.



  • I don’t think you heal while aiming xbow. You certainly do not recover stamina.



  • Of course, half the time I’m aiming my xbow the game thinks I’m sprinting (and conversely, when I am not aiming I cannot sprint) so who knows.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    Here is my updated list
    1. Remove crosshair
    2. Remove backstab bonus on every weapon except daggers and nerf them a bit (especially thrusting dagger)
    3. Stamina drain on drawing an arrow (15 for warbow, 10 for longbow and 5 for shortbow)
    4. Stamina drain on reloading xbows (5 for light xbow, 7 for xbow and 10 for heavy xbow)
    5. Stamina drain for aiming with xbows if you’re aiming longer than 3s (5 for light xbow, 7 for xbow and 10 for heavy xbow)
    6. Unable to shot without stamina
    7. Damage and accuracy with bow are based on how long you are drawing the bow

    I love this list. Though, I think 7 may be a bit overkill. The reason I like introducing stamina to archery is that it will make archers balance their ranged damage output with the knowledge that they will be helpless in melee if they overdo it. It also means that damage values don’t need to be changed, and the archers in this game won’t rail incessantly about being nerfed, because you can’t really complain when you can still practically 1-2 shot everything in the game from 100m.

    edit: I’m against any sort of spread, because it is frustrating to lose control over your actions, and adds a bit too much luck to archery if it were to be implemented.

    Oh, and archers should get some sort of crosshair, like evil said, the tiny one is probably fine.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    Here is my updated list
    1. Remove crosshair
    2. Remove backstab bonus on every weapon except daggers and nerf them a bit (especially thrusting dagger)
    3. Stamina drain on drawing an arrow (15 for warbow, 10 for longbow and 5 for shortbow)
    4. Stamina drain on reloading xbows (5 for light xbow, 7 for xbow and 10 for heavy xbow)
    5. Stamina drain for aiming with xbows if you’re aiming longer than 3s (5 for light xbow, 7 for xbow and 10 for heavy xbow)
    6. Unable to shot without stamina
    7. Damage and accuracy with bow are based on how long you are drawing the bow

    Pretty nice. The exact stamina costs would need some testing/adjustment - naturally (aka adding them and then toning them down if the impact was too much).

    As for the crosshair I think it would be enough to replace it with the color-coded dot you got for melee. Not all people like to go completely without. And it should still make it harder to aim at longer distances - and thats what the change is for.

    Daggers should get the backstab bonus for MaA too. In return a shorter reach (along with bubble removal of course) and more stamina cost on parry would help keep them balanced.



  • Crosshair should be removed, Archer melee should be nerfed, possibly even backstab removed. Archer doesnt need a ‘special ability’, it already has fucking bows, that do a tonne of damage and cant really be defended reliably against.

    Agree on a lot of points made about stamina drain for arrow draw also.

    Archers have a powerful tool already: bows and Xbows - they should not also have such a dangerous melee potential.



  • Daily reminder that TBS thinks archers are fair and balanced.



  • @Xylvion:

    Would the longbow-broad still one shot archers to the head with this nerf? if not the broadheads would be useless.

    Yes, I especially adjusted the numbers so that Broadheads would still have their effective 2HTK or 1HTK against Archers and Man at Arms, and also by adjusting the damage on Bodkin, the broadheads obviously becomes the more suitable weapon versus light armoured classes, and then again of course bodkin is more suitable vs Knights and Vanguard.
    For example with Shortbow: Broadheads will two hit maa and archer, but Bodkin will not two-hit maa, it will deal decent damage versus Vanguard tho, as for Longbow, Bodkin won’t onehit archers or maa, but broadheads will one hit maa and archers, bodkin with longbow will have 2htk on Vanguard tho, and so on the Warbow I think will have maybe 2-3htk on knight, while bodkin has 2, bodkin can also one-hit vanguard.

    That’s atleast what I tried to balance it after reducing the base damage so that a non-fatal shot won’t severly cripple the victim as it does right now, dunno if its much, but that’s the best I can do without changing the modifiers



  • @Pungvarg:

    Daily reminder that TBS thinks archers are fair and balanced.

    TBS are archers.

    Or they just aren’t biased.



  • You would know all about bias wouldn’t you.



  • The short bow isn’t really about killing, the true bower of the shortbow is flinching targets. Many a foe has died in TO from a shortbow flinch right as they are trying to parry that messar/greatsword/maul/whatever.



  • @Karasu:

    This is actually a very quality post. The opening line killed me though :P

    I’m all for buffing shields and smoke. That’s way overdue. I think the only archer nerf that really needs to happen is stam drain on arrow draw (as well as stam drain for crossbow reloading). I can explain at length if nobody’s seen my other post about it but I need do my homework. STOP DISTRACTING ME LEMON GAWSH BAN PLS.

    This ^
    Also, IMO the hit box for knights should be smaller to simulate arrows that would glance off plate mail at shallow angles. Arrow damage against knights should have to be on a steep angle or in other words along the centre line of the knight.



  • Smoke needs a time buff, it clears up wayy to quick.



  • I hate to put the fruit that is yellow in his place but I wrote extensively about this LAST YEAR on 05-11-2013 in this post:
    http://forums.tornbanner.com/showthread.php/11669-Archers-An-Honest-dicussion?highlight=honest+archers

    So the fruit that is yellow is again, basically stealing other peoples work and posting it like he had an original thought. Feel free to read it.

    That aside. I will summarize that post.

    Remove cross hairs and realign the player cam locations to correct for proper aiming.
    Increase weapon switch times so that the mirror everyone else’s and not the instant BS they have now.
    Range and damages are currently fine in most cases.
    Remove backstab bonus - range kills are their bonus ability.
    Yes I would like to not have them have 1shot ability against anyone but other archers.
    Dramatically nerf melee. Thus they also take damage from all heavy weapons whle using the smaller secondaries from a successful parry. AKA successful parry, dagger VS Maul = 5%-10% damage. What this does in buff the knights and some Vans without actually changing their stats. and puts archers back in the rear as support forcing better archery skills like it should be.

    That is about it. They dont need to be nerfed any further. Just fix the melee. They are a ranged class, melee should only be done as a last resort. Javs are the exception. In the original thread I left them out as they are really their own class and require addition debate.



  • Thus they also take damage from all heavy weapons whle using the smaller secondaries from a successful parry. AKA successful parry, dagger VS Maul = 5%-10% damage. What this does in buff the knights and some Vans without actually changing their stats. and puts archers back in the rear as support forcing better archery skills like it should be.

    That doesn’t make sense unless all smaller weapons across all classes do the same, seems like a poor chocie to gimp one classes weapon even though that weapon is better with another class.

    I belive halving the archers stamina pool would gimp their melee just fine, it will allow for 1 very short engagement. If it goes any longer than a few swings they’ll be out of stamina, or if there are multiple people attacking them they wont last it out. It means an archer can defend himself against 1 opponent that sneaks through, but if he gets caught on the front lines he is in lots of trouble without retreating quickly.



  • @Toll:

    That doesn’t make sense unless all smaller weapons across all classes do the same, seems like a poor chocie to gimp one classes weapon even though that weapon is better with another class.

    I belive halving the archers stamina pool would gimp their melee just fine, it will allow for 1 very short engagement. If it goes any longer than a few swings they’ll be out of stamina, or if there are multiple people attacking them they wont last it out. It means an archer can defend himself against 1 opponent that sneaks through, but if he gets caught on the front lines he is in lots of trouble without retreating quickly.

    Actually it does if you think about it. If you nerf one class and at the same time buff another, those opposing classes have a double nerf/buff against each other. This way it is a needed nerf that naturally buffs a few more without actually tweaking them.

    So many threads about buffing the Knight. Well all of the Knights heavy weapons so few actually play with for the obvious reasons. A dagger and other secondaries, many but not all could take additional damage upon a successful parry from these heavy weapons. The same would be true for a few of the Van’s slow assed weapons like the halberd and pole hammer. Thus it would balance the archer melee and buff the knight and the two Van weapons that could use a minor buff.

    By tweaking the archer melee you have done a nerf that minorly buffs a few much needed weapons.

    But reducing the stamina pool could have similar effects as well, I guess. Still backstab bonus and instant weapon switch would also have to be fixed.



  • Most weapons 2HK an archer. A little damage buff/nerf isn’t really going to change that.

    Yeah, archers don’t need backstab bonus at all, they have ranged.


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