Stamina and Good Gameplay



  • Whilst all the positive waves are circulating around, and we seem to be re-establishing a healthy developer/community communication/action relationship - I thought i’d pitch something in that I think could really help the game. Its an old idea - not even mine, but I think its great: and I see no downsides, aside from more player control.

    • Debate. Skip to the line for the actual idea: below is just background fluff. -

    So stamina in its current form (although shields stam drain is being changed), is still what I consider a problem for the gameplay potential. Stamina pools are fairly low - and running out of stamina is punished by a locked stun. Both these things together remove control from the player. The low stamina pool does reduce freedom in combat, reducing the options a player has substantially: in both duels and team games.

    Whilst I’m a firm believer that poor stamina management should be punished: and it rightly is a skill: the lock stun is just unintuitive, and damages the gameplay. It removes the players ability to defend themselves and even move - which is not the kind of thing that should feature in a skill based game.

    However…

    A low stamina pool is only really a problem because of the locked stun. Yes, its shorter than it used to be - but equally: why feature at all?


    What about these following changes -

    Having no stamina reduces your damage dealt (with any weapon or situation) by 50-75%.

    Combos are still possible.

    Obviously atm, the final blow dealt to a low stamina player stuns them. Instead of this stun - ripostes are not possible after a block with no stamina.

    This way, players ARE punished for not managing stamina: and they rightly lose offensive potential, but overall they still have several options… and CONTROL.

    Perhaps, as an extra balancing measure (if required), running out of stamina totally also slightly increases the delay for stamina regen: meaning that you take slightly longer to regen if you totally run out - also encouraging management rather than wild spam: if that became an issue. It also makes sense.


    Im really interested to see what effect this could have on the gameplay: and what people think. I believe it could be really positive: but what do you think? Have I not considered something important?



  • I like this. To be perfectly honest, I hate stamina stun and shield kick stun on both sides. It is both extremely annoying losing control and on the other side, getting a free hit because of stamina. I do like your ideas about how to better deal with stamina.



  • Thanks :). They aren’t necessarily my ideas entirely, worth noting! :). I think that shield kick stun should still happen though, just to clarify. The problem with shields is more the stamina stun than kick stun tbf! I think this nails the issue for that.



  • Hm. Not sure on this idea. Not getting stunned could provide fast weapon users a chance to recover too quickly.

    I would be happy with a simple 30% increase in stamina.



  • I always thought seeing stamina as a special bar for feints instead of a second health bar was good, so why not.



  • I think stamina should be your “ammunition” for special moves and punishment for missing your strike.

    Special moves are:

    • feint
      - combo
    • parry/block**
    • kick/shield bash
    • jump*
    • dodge
    • charge attack
      - riposte
    • ranged attacks***

    *should cost stamina but still be possible without for mobility reasons
    **should be possible without stamina to give people a chance to survive at a significant cost (stun is okay but some damage would be better)
    ***you can argue about this but it would add some reason to not miss too many arrows

    Basic moves like sprinting and attacking (without missing) should not cost stamina but stop regeneration. This way you can go on infinitely with basic moves or you can spam special moves but “burn out” to a point where you need a short break. Risk and reward.

    Making it possible to combo when out of stamina would make recovery completely meaningless and also take away a major disadvantage for being low on stamina: Not being able to use those fancy special moves. So please no comboing when out of stamina. Also the damage penalty is less believable especially when you are new. I would rather have my basic move at full strength and my special move disabled.

    I strongly support stamina cost on riposte because its by all means a special move. It increases to chance to end combat more quickly so its worth to get some cost attached to it.

    Its stupid if a player that spam a great deal of fancy moves does not get a significant disadvantage after blowing them all - he would have gotten a significant advantage when using them right after all. Stamina is in game to prevent “special move spamming” from being the only way to go.

    So instead of reducing the punishment for running out of stamina it would be better to reduce the probability of running out of stamina - by increasing the stamina pool and cutting down some of the stamina costs (like making kicks not drain stamina on the kicked).



  • I’d like to see how the game plays after some of the major changes in the works before hopping into the stamina war. I think stamina does need changing, but I still like what happens when you’re out right now. Back in the old days when you were out of stamina it really didn’t mean anything, you would get knocked back if you parried when you were out and it would you give you some extra stamina, but the daze time was so low that you could parry ANYTHING out of your daze including daggers. That was a major issue so I actually love the daze, but I don’t like how fast you run out of stamina compared to before.

    I think being low of stamina should put you in a very vulnerable state as it does currently (you SHOULD want to immediately go on the offensive when you hear your opponent breathing, that is good healthy gameplay IMO), but that it should take longer/more to get to that low state. If I’m not mistaken, using 2h weapons uses more stamina but also drains more stamina from your enemies which sounded like it would be the buff 2h kind’ve needed back then but I think the values are still too high.

    I think before we start giving more control to the players who are low/out of stamina, we should first see how the patches change the game, and then consider changing the values of stamina first.



  • Remember when MAA could dodge while dazed? Good times.



  • I think the stun is fine. Like Mithron said, before you could get stunned and only a person with an incredibly fast weapon could punish you before you recovered. It wasn’t enough punishment, especially since the old stamina pool was much larger. I think if we increased the amount of stamina in the pool (numbers yet to be determined) and slightly reduced the stun time, (very slightly) I think it would be a good balance.

    But good players will definitely be needing more stamina once this patch goes through. Since we’ll be making use of CFtP and PiP a lot, we’ll be running out of stamina quite quickly.



  • I’m not sure if being able to play with low/less stamina is an aspect of being a good player.



  • It is. Because it means you can do well without relying on special moves instead of just spamming them until your enemy drops.



  • Well this is what I think as well but for me it’s kinda weird that most competitive players have a different opinion. It’s true though that having to play with a low stamina pool is not too fun after all.



  • Thats why you should have enough stamina to play in an intermediate way (not conserving but not spammy/hyperactive* either) without worrying too much about running low most of the times. The problem with the live build is that people run out after barely doing anything (charge>miss>panic parry and your stamina is as good as gone).

    You should still be able to run out by missing a lot of strikes or spamming special moves without gain**.

    *Spammy refers to using the same move in quick succession (e.g. “feint whoring”, “slash spam”) while hyperactive means combining different special moves (e.g. “combo-feint-jump-kick-feint-parry-riposte-combo-CFtP-kick”).
    **Gain would be killing your enemy quickly before running out of stamina.



  • @Evil:

    So instead of reducing the punishment for running out of stamina it would be better to reduce the probability of running out of stamina - by increasing the stamina pool and cutting down some of the stamina costs (like making kicks not drain stamina on the kicked).

    Nothing about my suggestion advocates ‘reducing’ the punishment for running out of stamina: you should be punished - but you should retain the ability to move and fight, anything less takes control away from the player which is never good.

    My suggestion advocates altering the punishment, not nerfing it or reducing it. I said riposte not being available to reduce offensive capability when drained, severe damage penalties and increased delay on regen times for running out of stamina.

    Regardless - I either support something akin to my idea, or a significant stamina pool increase: because that also gives control to the player. Anything that gets us out of the current, restricted combat is better. I think I speak for everyone when I say I want to fight, not faff.



  • I personally really liked that experimental promod build where you could attack/combo without stamina (but not much else) and parrying without any stamina meant you lost some health relative to the stamina drain you should have received. I guess I’m biased, though.



  • @Triumphant:

    anything less takes control away from the player which is never good.

    I used to think that too, but then I remembered recovery parry. Removing recovery parry is a great thing, even if it means removing some control from the player.



  • @NabsterHax:

    I personally really liked that experimental promod build where you could attack/combo without stamina (but not much else) and parrying without any stamina meant you lost some health relative to the stamina drain you should have received. I guess I’m biased, though.

    This actually sounds pretty good.

    In terms of removing stamina stun, would you then reduce the stun time for a kicked shield?



  • I like the “lose health on staminaless parry” part but I don’t like being able to combo. As previously said its a special move. And it kills any meaning recovery time had before.



  • @Evil:

    I like the “lose health on staminaless parry” part but I don’t like being able to combo. As previously said its a special move. And it kills any meaning recovery time had before.

    Combos aren’t very special when you can’t do much with them except get parried. Ofc, changing the stamina pant to only occur on zero stam would be necessary to ensure that players wouldn’t have to guess what the other player has available to him. Still, even without combos I think it would be better than just getting stunned.

    As for shield kick stun, I’m not sure I would change it. It doesn’t catch the really good shield users out anyway.



  • @NabsterHax:

    Combos aren’t very special when you can’t do much with them except get parried. Ofc, changing the stamina pant to only occur on zero stam would be necessary to ensure that players wouldn’t have to guess what the other player has available to him. Still, even without combos I think it would be better than just getting stunned.

    As for shield kick stun, I’m not sure I would change it. It doesn’t catch the really good shield users out anyway.

    Aye, but maybe a reversion to the pre-patch stun or something close to it, as you’d remove our ability to get a free hit on an opponent by running them out of stamina, whilst they still have the option to get a lengthy stun on us. Sure, good shield users can avoid being kicked, but there’s some situations where it really is a tough call to make.


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