My Feedback and what needs to be done next



  • Well obviously as many of you know i love this beta as its probably the best state the game has ever been in, PiP works great together with CftP, which bringing back was a great move in the right direction again. But the state of the game can yet be improved alot, so i’m gonna talk about what i think should be done next.

    I will base this off the current beta and put the most important things first. This is my personal list and opinion of what should be done with the game.

    1. Bubble

    Has caused more problems then it fixed. Creates wierd scenarios where you get pushed away from the enemys, nerfed all short weapons in the game by a huge amount and other wierd things. I think the majority of the community wants it gone. It’s a no brainer. I suggest remove it or reduce by 75%.

    2. Twohander flinch

    This is quite a big part of combat and i have no clue how it went trough beta testing back in summer 2013. It clearly wasn’t tested enough so major flaws with it have been overlooked. I’m gonna take the best example for it here:

    A gets hit by a grandmace overhead by B. B does the latest possible combo feint right now, and overheads again. A tries to flinch the combo feint by attacking as fast as possible after the flinch lockout.

    Now, no matter how close A is, even in facehug range: a norse sword lookdown overhead won’t even get a hit trade. The only weapon that can get a hit trade on this scenario is a holy water stab.

    So B kills A, without even getting hit. And that is in facehug range against an extremely fast weapon. It gets worse when A uses a twohander and B gets a bit more distance ;)

    I don’t need to tell you why that’s completely broken. You get forced into a defensive state and duels become one dimensional.

    I suggest lowering the twohander flinch back to 0.8, the only weapon that should keep 1.1 is the maul.

    3. Vanguard problems

    Vanguard is currently the easiest and strongest melee class in the game. They offer alot of mobility, a huge knockback, a huge stamina drain and some of the best weapons in the game. At the moment its quite low risk but huge reward. Anyway theres alot to talk about this class but here are my suggestions:

    -Reduce knockback from vanguard weapons by ALOT

    • -slightly- decrease stamina drain from the vanguard weapons
      -Decrease the stamina drain from charge attack by 50%

    Dont nerf the weapons. These above should help putting the Vanguard into a good position by not overnerfing him too much. Don’t forget Knights will be strong in the next patch again guys!

    4. The Archer problem

    Right now, the archer is probably the best class in the game. Dominates pubs, dominates competitive play. No matter how good your melee is, if you have a bad archer and the enemys have a good one, you are gonna have a bad time.

    This class simply offers too much reward for too low risk. Its too easy to just shoot someone and take half of his HP away from a long distance.

    There has been alot of good suggestions on the forums about the archer problem but im going to keep it simple:

    I suggest you reduce the damage done by archers on bodyshots by 50% and add a small stamina drain on drawing a bow.

    Dont nerf its melee, dont artificially limit the players. With my change a good archer would still be good, but thats how it should be, rewarding. When you can hit headshots you should deserve the insane damage they do.

    There is a reason Team Fortress 2 uses exactly this system.

    5. Sprint Lockout and Chase mechanic

    Now the first one is a controversial topic. You added a sprint lockout to prevent dancers from dancing around in pubs and make noobs angry. However, Dancers still dance. Except they don’t get parried now.

    Just remove it, seriously, a dancer was probably the easiest thing for me to kill. When someone dances against a decent player, its a free hit for the guy. Its extremely easy to counter and a pretty risky move.

    HOWEVER only remove the sprint lockout under one condition: fix the chase mechanic.

    Right now its buggy, it activates for a second and then doesnt work again. Chase mechanic is what made dancers actually risky and not OP. So yeah, i would suggest fixing that first.

    6. Make bad weapons viable

    I’m gonna talk about my two favorite weapons here. The double axe and the falchion. The latter one was nerfed to shit tier from the summer patch. I never understood why.

    Nobody used the old falchion in competitive play, but me. It was considered a medicore weapon at best, nowhere near worthy of a nerf.

    I suggest reverting the damage nerf and putting the damagetype back to swingblunt.

    Now the double axe, is probably one of the worst weapons in the game, since release of chivalry.

    Its very hard to use properly because of its pathetic range, speed and suboptimal animations.

    However, the last two can be adjusted to. The double axe just needs a range buff. I suggest a 25-30% range buff on this weapon and nothing else.

    I know theres other “bad” weapons such as warhammer, flail etc. However, i cant give opinion on that because i dont play many weapons.

    **7. MAA Dodge

    **Many people suggested some good ideas to this Overpowered mechanic. Im going to keep this short. Dodge is supposed to be a powerful tool. However, such a powerful tool should not be the only way man at arms is supposed to be played. Right now you can spam this powerful tool with no worries whatsoever, because the knight or whoever you are fighting will run out of stamina first.

    Keep its power. Dont nerf its range or whatever. Dont add a cooldown as that would make it clunky. Simply limit the amount of dodges you can do by adding a bit more risk and stamina management to it. I suggest raising the stamina cost by 10-15.

    **
    8. Raise defensive feint window**

    This would be worth experimenting with. Basically give us the rest of the windup for a cancel feint, not an offensive feint. However there would need to be clear distinction between offensive and defensive windup. Or not? It would require some testing. But i know alot of people would love this, so it might be worth experimenting with.

    **9. Tutorial

    **This is quite an important thing. It will also be an important thing for your next game. So learn how to do one properly. Get someone like Hexen for a video together with a competitive player or something.

    10. More hats

    Make a war mask helmet for mason knight please. Ill buy it, even if its 5$ or something.
    **
    11. Fix the left over bugs**

    Fix things like onehanders becoming faster with shields. Or fix that bug where your mouse sensitivity gets really fast on some feint to parrys, annoying as hell. Or fix the bug where a firepot flinches you.

    Would be nice

    Anyway thats it i think, i hope i didnt miss anything



  • For the love of Meowric, fix being flinched in release.



  • @CRUSHED:

    6. Make bad weapons viable

    I’m gonna talk about my two favorite weapons here. The double axe and the falchion. The latter one was nerfed to shit tier from the summer patch. I never understood why.

    Nobody used the old falchion in competitive play, but me. It was considered a medicore weapon at best, nowhere near worthy of a nerf.

    I suggest reverting the damage nerf and putting the damagetype back to swingblunt.

    Now the double axe, is probably one of the worst weapons in the game, since release of chivalry.

    Its very hard to use properly because of its pathetic range, speed and suboptimal animations.

    However, the last two can be adjusted to. The double axe just needs a range buff. I suggest a 25-30% range buff on this weapon and nothing else.

    I know theres other “bad” weapons such as warhammer, flail etc. However, i cant give opinion on that because i dont play many weapons.

    I think I can offer my opinion on this segment since I have been playing with underdog/bad weapons lately.

    Double axe is a weapon that has a lot of potential but is overshadowed by grand mace. In fact double axe just feels like inferior version of Gmace, they have same hits to kill on knight and vanguard but double axe is shorter. Grand mace can also be accelerated to silly speeds and delayed enough to catch a lot of people. Double axe on the other hand is too slow to accelerate effectively and too fast to delay effectively. Right now it only feels great in situations where you can catch your opponent off guard but all the other weapons are great at that too.

    Making it longer would actually make it about same as grand mace except cutting damage. This might make it too similiar to Gmace except then you could kill archers and MAA with one overhand headshot (and long double axe might look a bit silly).

    Falchion is still a solid weapon for MAA but is once again overshadowed by the other swords.

    I really think it needs damage buff because right not broadsword and norse sword are just simply superior, thanks to range and speed. You might need one hit less with falchion sometimes but it’s simply not worth it.

    Warhammer relies solely on hit trading with knights right now. It can 2 hit knights if you manage to land at least one headshot but it’s short and slow for a 1hander. Once again, grand mace is superior choice. Only added benefit is the ability to use a shield but as we all know, shields are bad in group fighting. Hitting ADHD vanguards is also somewhat difficult with this weapon, thanks to bubble and vanguard movement speed. Chase doesn’t help since you stop “chasing” the instant you start your attack. It is great support or finished weapon if you have buddy with you all the times tho’, getting hit by warhammer hurts a lot and it’s good for getting those sneaky side OH’s or LMB’s while your opponent is distracted.

    I feel warhammer will be better if and when the bubble is removed. Damage buff would be too much since it already 2hits every class, it’s fast enough for that damage and range is only a problem with bubble.

    Flails would IMO be good but having to use buckler ruins them. With buckler you can barely take 3 hits without being stunned and both overheads and swings with flails have very long initial windup. They do have excellent combo speeds tho’ but getting combo going is the hardest part. Buckler punch is probably the best attack you can do with flails.

    Right now flails are purely dueling weapons, they have no role on the battlefield except looking silly with that powerwalk. I honestly have no idea what to do with flail to make it good but not too good. Less stamina drain with buckler if wielding flail? Scrap that, just give us heater shield with flails.



  • I dont think a longer double axe would be the same as gmace.

    gmace can be accelerated way faster



  • I believe in order to make the DB a little more viable is to make it’s windup 0.3 seconds shorter, and make it’s release 0.2 seconds longer.

    This makes is slightly different from the other axes in a way that it’s the only axe focusing more on release than on windup.
    Which should also add some room for ‘draggability’(<–I say it’s a word).



  • No it doesnt need any changes in speed or damage. Its perfectly balanced in these two, it just needs a small range buff imo :)



  • I agree with most of this with some limitations:

    Some other weapons should also have a higher flinch time (Zweihänder come to mind) - I suggest making it depend on the weapon with most of them (one- and twohanded) being reduced to 0.8. It might be interesting to get slightly higher flinch times for short but heavy hitting weapons like the Warhammer.

    Getting hit by a Vangaurd charge attack should come with a significant stamina cost. So I would like to keep to cost for parrying a charge attack up (should be more than parrying a Maul overhead) but reduce the cost for performing one. Then it should only charge/stay up when not turning too much (no chargeup by circling or 180° charges) - in return reducing the required time should be fair.

    As for knockback: I suggest bringing the strike knockback (slash, overhead) in line with the other classes and reduce all stab knockback values drastically (more for Vanguards of course). Charge attacks should come with a significanty knockback though.

    Yes to stamina costs, no to reduced torso damage. Keep in mind with buffed shields there is more reason for picking one which already results in an effective damage nerf.

    Sprint lockout should only be removed if the bubble goes. If it has to stay (I can’t see why it should) sprint lockout is required to deal with dancers. The Chase mechanic is similar - it should kick in if a dancing Vanguard turns his back to you to make it possible to beat him by going aggressive even when using a very short weapon.

    Most of the weapons here suffer from the bubble so I suggest tackling this problem before moving to weapon balance. The Falchion slash was overnerfed. I am not exactly sure if it had to be nerfed in the first place (and people seem to differe here). However, I suggest a more sensible approach: Buff either the damage or the damage type instead of both. Test it. If its not too strong release it into live. If it turns out its still too weak buff the other.

    Flails can be pretty nasty in close quarters because you can attack with both hands (same with Javelins but Achers got weak armor less favorable for going close and dirty) - they should also benefit greatly from the current betas changes (e.g. shield buff) and also from a potential bubble removal (because getting very close is their modus operandi). I would rather wait and see how the mechnical changes affect them.

    The stamina changes should work. But I still think it would be better to change the playstyle to a less frustrating state instead of just nerfing the current one while keeping it the same (not a fan of “dodge back - be happy”). Thats why I think removing some of the limitations but drastically reducing the range would be better (basically the inverse take on the old dodge).

    I think this should be tested. The idea is good and it makes sense as you can get flinched in late windup. However, it might lead to perceived inconsistency because at some point you can feint into attack and at some point you can’t - similar to the state of CFtP after the summer 2013 patch.

    So much. Poor newbies don’t even get told half of the most basic tricks here and even the different weapon types are only mentioned . There should be a training yard you can test different weapons on - with somebody giving you some basic information (“The Warhammer is a short and powerful weapon best used against heavily armored foes. Aim for the head!”). Also its bugged, tells you of long gone (and newer working) achievements and makes the Mason order look stupid.

    Hats, Beards and Weapons please.



  • Any love for the LS or SoW? They just seem in a completely different(inferior) league compared to the VG swords.



  • Which is how god intended it.



  • keep current feint windows, combofeint doesn’t need to be stronger than it already is. people should actually care whether they should stop their combo vs just letting it happen and reacting to a swing to get the trade/beat them out.

    to be perfectly honest i feel people who want the long feint parry window are the people who just spam combos and want something to cover their lack of range game. recovery parry did the same shit (covering people’s asses) except people didn’t have the option to immediately attack (they wanted the easy vortex kill) and took a shitload of stamina damage, enough so that they were forced out of the fight a bit. i didn’t like it that much but the stamina damage was pretty crazy so it was punishing in a sense- not to mention it was a purely defensive maneuver that let you get a hit trade and then guard another attack at the cost of stamina which i liked a lot about recov parry
    if you get flinched late windup that’s a pretty well timed attack by the attacker and i like that

    i don’t want the leniant as fuck mistake erasing initiative grabber back to be perfectly honest- yeah i can bait out an attack using a late as fuck combofeint and get a super fast lookdown but i can get that with current timings and with the option of having my opponent punishing me without using feints in a bigger window of time

    2h flinch is dumb
    VG having a lot of knockback is dumb



  • I think vanguard charge attack should be completely removed



  • A great post CRUSHED. There’s only one thing I’m going to nitpick about.

    Sprint Lockout

    This needs to be handled very carefuly, because this mechanic is influenced by a lot of others and visa-versa. With this new patch and several old mechanics back in place, removing sprint lockout may not be necessary.

    Removing it would only give more power to the already powerful Vanguard arsenal, because dancing favors longer weapons. You’re setting up controlled killzones when you dance, so the longer your weapon, the larger the killzone can become. If you’re good and precise with a long weapon, you can keep people at a perpetual distance without worry of being dropped from sprint, which in turn translates to you not being worried about distance. You can just force them to eat parry after parry until you have the upper hand in stamina.

    This concern is mostly in reference to Vanguard VS Knight.

    It’s also possible that with other changes to mechanics that this one may become a moot point. Changes to the bubble, chase mechanic, knockback, sprint and walk speeds and stamina values will all effect how viable dancing is/will become. But changes to these mechanics in the wrong direction could make dancing too superior of a tactic.

    Also…
    @afiNity:

    I think vanguard charge attack should be completely removed

    ^^ This



  • I think TBS won’t ever make that radical changes like removing class specials, even if they should (which they need to). They should now just focus on the bugs and some new TO maps. And I do think that flinch in release and bubble in the back are bugs.



  • I more or less agree with everything in this post. Good descriptions of the points, too.

    I think any changes to the MaA dodge should be postponed until the bubble and sprint lockout has been removed/reduced. My problem with the move atm is that you can often not punish a player for using the dodge poorly. For example, you are able to tell that the player is going to dodge backwards, you prepare for it by running straight at him, time your strike accordingly, but you’re halted by the bubble and thus can’t reach him.

    Of course, it’s not crazy to imagine the dodge will need a nerf despite the mechanical changes. I just think nothing should be rushed about this thing. I personally think that the dodge should be punished by the opponent, and that’s what should force the MaA to dodge with care, not by the stamina limit. I also think all classes should have more somewhat stamina than currently or at least have the ability to regenerate it faster but that’s off topic.



  • I agree with everything. But I would say sow/LS are in need of a buff just as much as the doubleaxe. Its ridicoulus how they are so much weaker than most of the vanguard weapons in all ways, and alot weaker than the heavy knight weapons in 1v1 (atleast in a knight vs knight fight). The dmg of SoW/LS is low, their stamina drain is low, knockback is low, accelerates/drags with SoW/LS are alot weaker than for instance messer and most of the vg weapons.

    They dont need any speed increase or anything tho, just a dmg buff.



  • @Mean:

    But I would say sow/LS are in need of a buff just as much as the doubleaxe. Its ridicoulus how they are so much weaker than most of the vanguard weapons in all ways

    Keep in mind that vanguard arsenal is supposed to be superior. That’s his real specialty.

    If knight swords will become as good as vanguard swords then what is the vanguard’s role? Inferior knight with a bit more speed and no shields?

    And when it comes to weapons, swords are supposed to be balanced allrounders (is that even a word?). If swords become as good in knight vs knight fight as heavy weapons, then what is the point of heavy weapons?

    Right now when I am playing with heavy weapons, I usually pick broadsword as secondary because I need it to deal with MAA and archers. With longsword or sword of war I never feel that I should switch to secondary.



  • @Kreittis:

    If knight swords will become as good as vanguard swords then what is the vanguard’s role? Inferior knight with a bit more speed and no shields?

    This is what people said pre-patch but I don’t believe it to be true at all. Many pubs found playing vanguard easier because of their large LMB weapons and faster movement.

    The stance of “vanguard being a weaker knight” was taken for a while in competitive play, but I simply believe this is because no one really trained hard at sword vanguards. Vanguards spear weapons were ALWAYS useful to a team as support, even if they didn’t end up doing most of the damage. Towards the end of that old competitive scene we were also seeing many more sword vanguards used very effectively by people like Sophax and Josh.

    They were underestimated, not underpowered.

    @Hexen: I’ve got to disagree with you on the sprint lockout. Playing a knight I feel much more locked down than I used to, simply because it’s impossible to sidestep an incoming attack to minimise the effect of feints.

    Vanguard overbuffs are a different issue that need to be addressed separately. But I have no doubt the game would be better off without clunky sprint-lockout, even if that means toning down other aspects that were only made fair due to sprint lockout. I don’t even care if VG is ridiculously OP for a few patches, the important thing is getting the base mechanics for all classes right before tweaking the individual classes, and right now the base mechanics simply aren’t at the stage they need to be to make other judgements.



  • @Kreittis:

    Keep in mind that vanguard arsenal is supposed to be superior. That’s his real specialty.

    If knight swords will become as good as vanguard swords then what is the vanguard’s role? Inferior knight with a bit more speed and no shields?

    And when it comes to weapons, swords are supposed to be balanced allrounders (is that even a word?). If swords become as good in knight vs knight fight as heavy weapons, then what is the point of heavy weapons?

    Right now when I am playing with heavy weapons, I usually pick broadsword as secondary because I need it to deal with MAA and archers. With longsword or sword of war I never feel that I should switch to secondary.

    The vanguards speciality is mainly his reach tbh. Having broken weapons shouldnt be any classes speciality. Im not saying the knights swords should become the same as the vgs, the vgs would still have alot more reach, speed, dragability, stamina draining, knockbacks and dmg even if LS/Sow recieved a small dmg buff (which really is needed).

    With heavy weapons I ment messer, and all the axes aswell. It makes sense that blunt weapons should be alittle superior in a knight vs knight fight tho. But tbh my main focus wasnt the knight vs knight situations, but knight vs vanguard and knights in teambattles mainly.

    Its not news that the knight currently is abit too weak compared to the other classes. They dont even fullfill their tank role very much better than the other classes. (gets 2-3 shotted by alot of weapons, just like vg. Not to mention maa dodge)



  • In my opinion there should be a stamina pool buff as a “base of balancing” the game.

    • Increase overall stamina pool by 33%.
    • Increase the recovery of stamina by 33%.

    This should make the majority of the players happy:

    Veterans = They can do more on the battlefield and in duels.
    Newbs = They won’t rage at lack of stamina.

    It sure will help dealing with Men at arms and Chivalry won’t look like a “Stamina simulator 2014”.

    Your thoughts?



  • @Vesanus:

    In my opinion there should be a stamina pool buff as a “base of balancing” the game.- Increase overall stamina pool by 33%.- Increase the recovery of stamina by 33%.This should make the majority of the players happy: Veterans = They can do more on the battlefield and in duels.Newbs = They won’t rage at lack of stamina.It sure will help dealing with Men at arms and Chivalry won’t look like a “Stamina simulator 2014”.Your thoughts?

    Would seem like a good idea, but then CFTP would be a tad cheap stamina-wise(oh, here comes the hate).


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