MAA Dodge cancels recovery and flinch times



  • You can bypass recovery times and flinch times after getting hit by dodging immediately afterwards.

    You can actually interrupt COMBOS by dodging as soon as you get hit and attacking.

    I know I’m late to the party on this one, but I just recently pin-pointed how to repeat it; very abusable.



  • i saw it happen in front of my face, hit someone with a hit, died to an attack without flinch during my combo



  • Can confirm about dodge being able to bypass flinch and recovery.

    Unrelated but it’s another timing / flinch related thing: I noticed when using a zweihander, I hit a vanguard with the lmb, combo’ing into an overhand attack, and he was able to land a stab with the shortsword before my lookdown overhand reached him. The overhand would’ve hit, but that was the killing blow unfortunately.



  • I can confirm this as well.



  • bump, this is very abusable and can be game-breaking in more than enough situations.



  • Yep yep yep. This is happening and it’s broken as hell.

    I’ll also echo Gauntlet’s sentiments about the zwei. The 2-hander flinch is now the same length or shorter than the zwei’s combo times. Not good.



  • You’ve been able to dodge outta flinch for a while now… you sure this isn’t intended? I understand not being able to interrupt combos (although feint to parry?) … but it always seemed like an intended mechanic to me… I dunno I don’t think much of these things… I just do the mechanics that I’m able to do… obvi I wouldn’t intentionally ghost swing or something… but this just seems like part of the flow of MAA…



  • You were able to super-dodge for the longest time as well, and back then I said the same thing as you (that was a dark time).

    Both were able to be performed accidentally even if you knew about the bug, but RARELY.

    They are both bugs, I don’t see a difference; unless TBS says otherwise.



  • Silly Massi dominated me with this today. :)



  • @Shack:

    Silly Massi dominated me with this today. :)

    I hope he doesn’t get used to it.



  • @Mystikkal:

    You’ve been able to dodge outta flinch for a while now… you sure this isn’t intended? I understand not being able to interrupt combos (although feint to parry?) … but it always seemed like an intended mechanic to me… I dunno I don’t think much of these things… I just do the mechanics that I’m able to do… obvi I wouldn’t intentionally ghost swing or something… but this just seems like part of the flow of MAA…

    Bump. Of course dodging out of flinch is intended. Dodging out of flinch and attacking to interrupt someones combo is a bug that you’ve never been able to do until just now.

    Can we get a dev response on whether this is a bug or a (bullshit) feature?



  • Yeah this should be either addressed or fixed soon. Not sure if it is an intended mechanic or not. I keep accidentally doing it in scrims. Especially on NoVa. ;)

    Also, superdodge needs to be addressed in the same way. I am perfectly capable of replicating the superdodge with 98.00% accuracy. Superdodge is wayyyyyy broken; I can easily get away from any fight and it beats the chase mechanic.

    For now, we should ban both exploits in competitive play. However, I personally do perform the dodge out of flinch accidentally on occasion. Maybe a 2 strikes warning? 2 strikes and you’re out? Hopefully we can all sort this out.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    You were able to super-dodge for the longest time as well, and back then I said the same thing as you (that was a dark time).

    Both were able to be performed accidentally even if you knew about the bug, but RARELY.

    They are both bugs, I don’t see a difference; unless TBS says otherwise.

    By the way… superdodge is still here



  • All,

    I don’t have a lot of time to write comprehensive pieces on the forums, but do when I feel things have gotten out of hand. I wanted to address the issue of dodging out of stun. Many argue that dodge of out flinch and then attacking is an “exploit”.

    I’d like to start by stating that dodge out of flinch has always been part of the game. The mechanic was briefly taken out of the game and then added back with the re-integration of cftp. Without CFTP in the game, if certain weapons combo’ed against an MAA, it left them dead in the water. Now, it’s usually not a great idea to combo against an MAA with certain weapons, but you have the tools (ctfp) to be able to manage the situation if the MAA dodges and attacks. I’ll take a concept from Hexen on this one – you cannot assume that you can fight an MAA the same way that you fight a Vanguard or Knight. First, you are likely better off switching to a secondary. Secondly, if you are using one of the weapons that has trouble combo’ing an MAA (e.g. SoW or Great Sword) – don’t combo an MAA in that instance. Thirdly, if the MAAs are giving you trouble in a match, there are plenty of weapons that counter MAAs (such as the halberd, brandi, pole axe, etc.). Not all class/weapon combinations are designed to match up equally.

    But let’s address the concept of dodge out of flinch being an “exploit”. To me, an exploit is a bug that is consciously done by a player, that was clearly unintended by the developers, and has a reasonable influence on the game. I do not believe Tornbanner has ever stated that this is an exploit. An exploit is NOT a determination by certain players that they feel the timings/game mechanic shouldn’t be the way they are designed. Just as people sometimes call lookdown overheads, drags, etc. exploits, they are not – they are part of the core mechanics and TIMING of the game. Chivalry is all about understanding your timings. There are certain weapons that cannot safely combo against an MAA – other weapons can (including the halberd) with proper footwork. People need to use footwork and understand the timings of their weapons. The point is, you CAN argue that dodge out of flinch and attacking should not be part of the game, but you CANNOT claim that someone using the mechanics of the game is an exploit. There is no indication that the timings are a bug (we will get to whether we agree with them later). But the fact remains, that the MAA doesn’t need to adjust to you here, the MAA is playing within the mechanics of the game (which are far from game breaking). You need to adjust to the fact that MAA can dodge out of flinch and attack faster than certain combos. An exploit is when someone purposely tries to bypass the design of the core mechanics (e.g. getting up to a part of the map where you aren’t suppose to be; or purposely doing a series of attacks so that the opponent’s game doesn’t correctly show the animations (ghost swinging)). Those things are exploits – understanding what your class is capable of doing – is not an exploit. An exploit also needs to be done purposely. When you could dodge out of stun – that was a little more of a conscious decision. In team fights – whenever you get hit, you dodge… and you usually want to attack after that. I guess when it’s a smaller battle and you get hit by a great sword, you could dodge and not attack… but you know what I say? Yes, the same thing, learn your timings!.. and don’t try to combo me. Me attacking there is the right decision – you combo’ing there is the wrong decision. Play better.

    So now that we have addressed the whole “stop exploiting! I don’t want to adapt to the mechanics of the game” thing, let’s discuss whether dodge out of flinch should be in the game. I think it’s pretty safe to say that MAAs need to be able to dodge out of flinch. They would be dead in the water after a 2 handed flinch without that ability. If they couldn’t dodge, the enemy could just feint them and kill them. Remember, when you are flinched, you are stuck in place, so an enemy can perfectly distance themselves to where they can feint you and then read your action. If the MAA blocks – then the enemy swings and kills the MAA. If the MAA attacks (which is pretty stupid for the MAA to do given that a hit trade kills you), then the enemy can just block the MAA because they have distanced themselves appropriately. Now, while other classes have this same challenge (of being stuck when they are flinched), an MAA uses a one handed weapon so they will flinch the enemy for a shorter period of time. Additionally, those other classes (esp knights) can afford to hit trade. This is where people will say, well it’s not fair that MAAs can regain initiative by dodging – but that’s part of what makes an MAA an MAA. MAAs have the speed and agility, but at the expense of armor and damage – they need to be able to regain initiative because they cannot hit trade and they take increased stamina drain from 2 handed weapons. As I have stated before, in high level play, MAAs already have enough trouble in team play (and all of those MAAs dodge out of flinch). Last night, for example, the core MAA from one of the best clans went a total of 19 – 41 against us on Stoneshill TO (both sides combined and the match went pretty much full time on both sides) - yes, he got 8 kills on one side of TO. MAAs at the bottom of the scoreboard is pretty typical. And that MAA was dodging out of flinch. Let’s please not nerf the MAAs even further to the point where they aren’t even feasible to run in comp play.

    So I’m pretty comfortable saying that MAAs should be able to dodge out of flinch. The question then becomes whether an MAA should be able to attack after they dodge out of flinch. Honestly, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to do so. First off, I don’t think locking people out of actions is anything that people want in this game. MAAs are meant to be fast and elusive. They need abilities to regain control in fights. And that ability comes at high stamina costs. Secondly, the MAAs dodge and attack mechanic has already been nerfed to where we have to dodge and then attack. In instances where certain weapons cannot combo against us, they just shouldn’t combo there. When I fight Flippy, for example, he doesn’t combo after he hits me. If I dodge and attack, he usually blocks me and now has the advantage (he’s close to me and just parried me). Third, MAAs need to flinch in team games in order to be effective. If an MAA could only dodge and not attack, it continues to put them in a weak state. MAAs need to be able to gain strength in a fight. They need to be able to dodge and go flinch someone coming on their back. They are too susceptible to feints to not be able to attack. Lastly, CFTP is in the game to account for instances where your combo with certain weapons that can be flinched by dodge+attack.

    One could argue that we should slow down how fast an MAA can dodge and attack, speed up the combo times for those two handed weapons that get flinched during combo, or make it so they don’t get flinched as easily. But for the reasons I stated in the pharagraph above, I think it’s fine the way it is. There is no way that dodge out of flinch should be removed - but I could see an argument for not having it flinch some combos. I still don’t agree with that though - I think it would hurt MAAs even more in team fights. Have you guys ever tried 2v2ing as an MAA against Knights and Vanguards? I haven’t seen many people do it successfully. My vote is for these guys to adapt to the mechanics of the game and stop yelling exploit because they get beat. The game is dynamic right now… if an MAA is able to jump a two hander from behind he’s made a good strategic move. If a brandi catches an MAA in the wrong position, the MAA gets wrecked. Let’s keep this game fun and dynamic. The reality is that interrupting combo’s is something that rarely occurs in team play anyway… And the guys who bitch about it are in clans who have MAAs that do it.
    Mystikkal: But Massi [from your clan] dodge outs of flinch and attacks all the time
    Mike Ox Long: I know he does, that doesn’t mean I agree with it
    Mystikkal: Go talk to your clan before you come bitch at me then, thanks

    P.s. I likely won’t be responding much to comments on this post. I don’t have the time to have the same circular arguments that some like to engage in on the forums.

    ~Mystikkal
    Adapt to the game - don’t expect the game to adapt to you

    the server is literally decaying



  • But let’s address the concept of dodge out of flinch being an “exploit”.

    stopped reading here, because this thread is not about that being an exploit.

    It’s about dodge canceling your flinch DURATION and recovery DURATION, causing you to be able to attack much sooner than you are supposed to. You can also single strike -> dodge -> single strike faster than you are able to combo 2 attacks (hence why i bring up recovery bypassing as well).

    Not arguing about making MAA unable to dodge during flinch again, just fix them being able to attack faster than they are supposed to.

    In other words, you’re still completely missing the point.

    @Jimmy – wat?

    is it the same key input as last time? how do you do it without dodge attack?



  • A little bird told me that you can super dodge by mashing jump and dodge at the same time and if you get the timing right you do a super dodge. I’ve only been able to do it once or twice though, I can’t get the timing right at all

    @myst

    What Nova said.

    While it’s stupid for a MaA to be tanking hits so he can immediately dodge and hit you with a followed up attack, it’s still an exploit and very game breaking. Dodging should not bypass the recovery/flinch times.



  • @Mystikkal:

    All,

    I don’t have a lot of time to write comprehensive pieces on the forums, but do when I feel things have gotten out of hand. I wanted to address the issue of dodging out of stun. Many argue that dodge of out flinch and then attacking is an “exploit”.

    I’d like to start by stating that dodge out of flinch has always been part of the game. The mechanic was briefly taken out of the game and then added back with the re-integration of cftp. Without CFTP in the game, if certain weapons combo’ed against an MAA, it left them dead in the water. Now, it’s usually not a great idea to combo against an MAA with certain weapons, but you have the tools (ctfp) to be able to manage the situation if the MAA dodges and attacks. I’ll take a concept from Hexen on this one – you cannot assume that you can fight an MAA the same way that you fight a Vanguard or Knight. First, you are likely better off switching to a secondary. Secondly, if you are using one of the weapons that has trouble combo’ing an MAA (e.g. SoW or Great Sword) – don’t combo an MAA in that instance. Thirdly, if the MAAs are giving you trouble in a match, there are plenty of weapons that counter MAAs (such as the halberd, brandi, pole axe, etc.). Not all class/weapon combinations are designed to match up equally.

    But let’s address the concept of dodge out of flinch being an “exploit”. To me, an exploit is a bug that is consciously done by a player, that was clearly unintended by the developers, and has a reasonable influence on the game. I do not believe Tornbanner has ever stated that this is an exploit. An exploit is NOT a determination by certain players that they feel the timings/game mechanic shouldn’t be the way they are designed. Just as people sometimes call lookdown overheads, drags, etc. exploits, they are not – they are part of the core mechanics and TIMING of the game. Chivalry is all about understanding your timings. There are certain weapons that cannot safely combo against an MAA – other weapons can (including the halberd) with proper footwork. People need to use footwork and understand the timings of their weapons. The point is, you CAN argue that dodge out of flinch and attacking should not be part of the game, but you CANNOT claim that someone using the mechanics of the game is an exploit. There is no indication that the timings are a bug (we will get to whether we agree with them later). But the fact remains, that the MAA doesn’t need to adjust to you here, the MAA is playing within the mechanics of the game (which are far from game breaking). You need to adjust to the fact that MAA can dodge out of flinch and attack faster than certain combos. An exploit is when someone purposely tries to bypass the design of the core mechanics (e.g. getting up to a part of the map where you aren’t suppose to be; or purposely doing a series of attacks so that the opponent’s game doesn’t correctly show the animations (ghost swinging)). Those things are exploits – understanding what your class is capable of doing – is not an exploit. An exploit also needs to be done purposely. When you could dodge out of stun – that was a little more of a conscious decision. In team fights – whenever you get hit, you dodge… and you usually want to attack after that. I guess when it’s a smaller battle and you get hit by a great sword, you could dodge and not attack… but you know what I say? Yes, the same thing, learn your timings!.. and don’t try to combo me. Me attacking there is the right decision – you combo’ing there is the wrong decision. Play better.

    So now that we have addressed the whole “stop exploiting! I don’t want to adapt to the mechanics of the game” thing, let’s discuss whether dodge out of flinch should be in the game. I think it’s pretty safe to say that MAAs need to be able to dodge out of flinch. They would be dead in the water after a 2 handed flinch without that ability. If they couldn’t dodge, the enemy could just feint them and kill them. Remember, when you are flinched, you are stuck in place, so an enemy can perfectly distance themselves to where they can feint you and then read your action. If the MAA blocks – then the enemy swings and kills the MAA. If the MAA attacks (which is pretty stupid for the MAA to do given that a hit trade kills you), then the enemy can just block the MAA because they have distanced themselves appropriately. Now, while other classes have this same challenge (of being stuck when they are flinched), an MAA uses a one handed weapon so they will flinch the enemy for a shorter period of time. Additionally, those other classes (esp knights) can afford to hit trade. This is where people will say, well it’s not fair that MAAs can regain initiative by dodging – but that’s part of what makes an MAA an MAA. MAAs have the speed and agility, but at the expense of armor and damage – they need to be able to regain initiative because they cannot hit trade and they take increased stamina drain from 2 handed weapons. As I have stated before, in high level play, MAAs already have enough trouble in team play (and all of those MAAs dodge out of flinch). Last night, for example, the core MAA from one of the best clans went a total of 19 – 41 against us on Stoneshill TO (both sides combined and the match went pretty much full time on both sides) - yes, he got 8 kills on one side of TO. MAAs at the bottom of the scoreboard is pretty typical. And that MAA was dodging out of flinch. Let’s please not nerf the MAAs even further to the point where they aren’t even feasible to run in comp play.

    So I’m pretty comfortable saying that MAAs should be able to dodge out of flinch. The question then becomes whether an MAA should be able to attack after they dodge out of flinch. Honestly, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to do so. First off, I don’t think locking people out of actions is anything that people want in this game. MAAs are meant to be fast and elusive. They need abilities to regain control in fights. And that ability comes at high stamina costs. Secondly, the MAAs dodge and attack mechanic has already been nerfed to where we have to dodge and then attack. In instances where certain weapons cannot combo against us, they just shouldn’t combo there. When I fight Flippy, for example, he doesn’t combo after he hits me. If I dodge and attack, he usually blocks me and now has the advantage (he’s close to me and just parried me). Third, MAAs need to flinch in team games in order to be effective. If an MAA could only dodge and not attack, it continues to put them in a weak state. MAAs need to be able to gain strength in a fight. They need to be able to dodge and go flinch someone coming on their back. They are too susceptible to feints to not be able to attack. Lastly, CFTP is in the game to account for instances where your combo with certain weapons that can be flinched by dodge+attack.

    One could argue that we should slow down how fast an MAA can dodge and attack, speed up the combo times for those two handed weapons that get flinched during combo, or make it so they don’t get flinched as easily. But for the reasons I stated in the pharagraph above, I think it’s fine the way it is. There is no way that dodge out of flinch should be removed - but I could see an argument for not having it flinch some combos. I still don’t agree with that though - I think it would hurt MAAs even more in team fights. Have you guys ever tried 2v2ing as an MAA against Knights and Vanguards? I haven’t seen many people do it successfully. My vote is for these guys to adapt to the mechanics of the game and stop yelling exploit because they get beat. The game is dynamic right now… if an MAA is able to jump a two hander from behind he’s made a good strategic move. If a brandi catches an MAA in the wrong position, the MAA gets wrecked. Let’s keep this game fun and dynamic. The reality is that interrupting combo’s is something that rarely occurs in team play anyway… And the guys who bitch about it are in clans who have MAAs that do it.
    Mystikkal: But Massi [from your clan] dodge outs of flinch and attacks all the time
    Mike Ox Long: I know he does, that doesn’t mean I agree with it
    Mystikkal: Go talk to your clan before you come bitch at me then, thanks

    P.s. I likely won’t be responding much to comments on this post. I don’t have the time to have the same circular arguments that some like to engage in on the forums.

    ~Mystikkal
    Adapt to the game - don’t expect the game to adapt to you

    the server is literally decaying

    http://imgur.com/a/aM8EW



  • @OPxMike:

    http://imgur.com/a/aM8EW

    Just to be sure, you’re talking about MaA bypassing flinch/recovery times right? And not dodging out of flinch? :)



  • RIP in peace

    @ DokB – I hope the devs are on the same page as us too, lol



  • @DokB:

    Just to be sure, you’re talking about MaA bypassing flinch/recovery times right? And not dodging out of flinch? :)

    “Im wondering if TB has decided if dodging out of flinch and interrupting combos was an exploit or not”
    Thats a quote from the picture of what I said.


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