Longbow / Shortbow Consolidation Ideas



  • I’m going to do my best to keep numbers out of this. I’d prefer we kept this discussion limited to one about choosing a bow based on its feel, rather than another one of these: “Bow X has better numbers, therefore it is The Only Choice.”

    I want to discuss the longbow and shortbow:

    I do not feel the longbow and shortbow are both needed. In comparison to the shortbow, the damage and range bumps are very nice and you only end up losing a tiny bit of speed per shot (5%, I think – numbers are gross).

    This seemingly negligible speed difference can and will add up over many shots, but I don’t know that the quiver is large enough to legitimize that point past an exaggerated hypothetical situation involving spamming arrows.

    My thoughts and ideas:

    Having said all that, I feel it would be much more interesting for all players, whether they be archers or targets, to consolidate longbow and shortbow into one bow.

    I say this because having an option for everything makes the gameplay feel diluted in a sense.

    Having to choose between polar opposites is very interesting and provides beautiful, dynamic gameplay.

    Shortbow offers a far more frenetic playstyle than longbow as a result of it weighing you down the least and shooting the fastest, while warbow is a much more deliberate playstyle.

    Warbow’s damage is crazy high, but makes sense to be.

    I do feel the warbow is still too fast, however, and perhaps if it were slower, it would further separate and polarize the shortbow and the warbow playstyles.

    I feel the longbow’s damage and range are not necessary, as the warbow covers the range and does more damage and the shortbow is faster and lighter than the longbow, but only just.

    The longbow has much better damage and range, really, but people still choose shortbow because it’s so nimble to play with and allows them to be quicker and ultimately more effective with interrupts and assists, although the gains here still don’t seem to legitimize choosing shortbow over longbow in the grand scheme of things – stopping power and range can be very convincing.

    The shortbow’s damage and speed and range feel quite nice, though – playing up-front is frantic and rewarding.

    Again, in the interest of having to choose between two polar opposite playstyles offered by one bow or the other, perhaps incentivizing assists could provide an interesting solution.

    Warbow isn’t as much about assists as it is about nukes.

    Shortbow is an assist machine!

    I don’t know that I have a proposal for incentivizing an assist-centric playstyle, but perhaps nocking is a bit faster (effect does not stack) if your last shot interrupted an enemy swing or resulted in an assist.

    Perhaps the effect is doubled for a headshot.

    Perhaps the effect is inverted when you shoot a friendly.

    Perhaps shooting somebody in the beanbag results in the entirety of Torn Banner Studios fist-bumping you through the screen and kissing you on the mouth.

    I suppose what I’m saying could be condensed down to this:

    The bow choices feel more like diluted illusions of choice, rather than playstyle-defining choices that define the spirit and essence of your warrior.

    The bows all fling arrows and that’s fine, but it’s how each bow flings arrows that could be made more interesting.

    This is all brain vomit and I tried to make it as easy to read as possible.

    If any of it sounds interesting to any of you, I’d love to discuss it, but please save the archer hatred for other threads.

    Thanks!



  • @boogerjuice:

    Having said all that, I feel it would be much more interesting for all players, whether they be archers or targets, to consolidate longbow and shortbow into one bow.

    No. Nothings stops the Shortbow from being an opposite to the Warbow even with the Longbow existant. And having an additional option in between is even better.

    But right now the speed aspect feels underwhelming and its generally more efficient to pick the Warbow (for massive damage) or the Sling (for rate of fire and mobility).

    So what to do? Instead of removing options by combining these bows into one - buff them to add options. They key is DPS contra flinch contra nuke.

    Right now the Warbow monopolizes the first and last aspects. To counter this just nerf it to a more reasonable state - it should keep the nuke capability (hits to kill) but in terms of DPS the Longbow should be more powerful (as it combines speed and damage). Then the flinch (support) niche is open for the Shortbow (specialized in speed).



  • Make archers able to sprint while charging a shortbow. 'Nuff said.



  • I use the shortbow for the fact it has an achievement. When I reach said achievement, sling for me. sling>shortbow

    Crossbows are better anyway. I used crossbow before it was mainstream. I am so cool puts on sunglasses



  • When I did the shortbow achievement, I found out what a good weapon it really can be. But I agree that the sling is currently superior. Shortbow needs to be just slightly faster - problem solved.



  • @Evil:

    No. Nothings stops the Shortbow from being an opposite to the Warbow even with the Longbow existant. And having an additional option in between is even better.

    But right now the speed aspect feels underwhelming and its generally more efficient to pick the Warbow (for massive damage) or the Sling (for rate of fire and mobility).

    So what to do? Instead of removing options by combining these bows into one - buff them to add options. They key is DPS contra flinch contra nuke.

    Right now the Warbow monopolizes the first and last aspects. To counter this just nerf it to a more reasonable state - it should keep the nuke capability (hits to kill) but in terms of DPS the Longbow should be more powerful (as it combines speed and damage). Then the flinch (support) niche is open for the Shortbow (specialized in speed).

    I agree that the shortbow is currently the polar opposite to the warbow (within the bows tier, that is), but what I am suggesting is that the polarization be pushed even further to make each choice more interesting, leaving a divide in the middle to be filled not by a longbow that warms the stats fence, but instead by javelins and crossbows. Having an additional option, the longbow, existing between the shortbow and warbow is senseless, in my opinion. The longbow is better on all fronts aside from being a tad slower to move with and 5% slower rate of fire. I suppose the shortbow’s speed would be fine the way it is if it did a wee bit more damage. The longbow really isn’t needed, to be honest. Sling and shortbow are wonderful and warbow is a shining star on its own, but using longbow feels like avoiding any sort of meaningful decision at all. It’s an uninteresting choice and offers nothing unique the way that sling, shortbow, and warbow do. I’d rather have the longbow and shortbow rolled into one fast, capable bow as the other option to warbow. Having more choices homogenizes choices with each additional option.



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    Crossbows are better anyway. I used crossbow before it was mainstream. I am so cool puts on sunglasses

    Crossbows are interesting, but I’ll take a sling, javelins, or a bow over any crossbow at any point in any game on any day. Crossbows are nice for firing into groups of dudes and sniping, but not much else, really. It’s an even more deliberate playstyle than warbow, though, which is what keeps it interesting for some, I think.



  • @Monsteri:

    Make archers able to sprint while charging a shortbow. 'Nuff said.

    I considered this, but I want to say I remember there being a bug where you could begin sprinting with your shortbow if you hit sprint while nocking your arrow. It’s gone now, sadly, but it does make sense. Sprinting while keeping an arrow nocked, even with a shortbow, would be very difficult and drain one’s stamina quite fast. I don’t need to sprint with it, but I’d love to be able to deflect (very slowly) incoming blows with it (at the cost of a good bit of stamina) or kick while holding it. I don’t know that it’d be a good idea to allow people to swing bows in melee range, though, unless the damage was more negligible than not and the blows were delivered very slowly. In my mind, it’s a last resort maneuver allowing for you to be less of a sitting duck and buy yourself a moment or two more to get your blade out. Having said all that, I also like the idea of being able to chop through a bow after a couple swings on it. Extreme trade-offs make for interesting decisions and even more interesting gameplay.



  • @BillDoor:

    When I did the shortbow achievement, I found out what a good weapon it really can be. But I agree that the sling is currently superior. Shortbow needs to be just slightly faster - problem solved.

    I agree with your assertion that the shortbow needs to be slightly faster. The sling is faaast, which is great, but it also brings with it 100% mobility. That being said, the shortbow is only a smidge faster than the longbow, so it almost doesn’t feel like a viable choice. I love shortbow and almost never use longbow, but for the shortbow’s main point to be its speed, the gains in speed do not legitimize the losses in damage and range in comparison to the longbow, from what I’ve been able to tell thus far (been maining archer with bows for nearly a year).



  • don’t get it removed now we just spent like 20 hrs fine tuning the short bow to shoot rapid fire matrix like arrows that whistl and only go 30 ft.

    they just need to be ranged properly,
    long bow for long shots
    and short bow for short game
    and war bow for medium range,
    that’s what we did in our mod and it works great and offers 3 different strategies



  • @WARSAW:

    don’t get it removed now we just spent like 20 hrs fine tuning the short bow to shoot rapid fire matrix like arrows that whistl and only go 30 ft.

    they just need to be ranged properly,
    long bow for long shots
    and short bow for short game
    and war bow for medium range,
    that’s what we did in our mod and it works great and offers 3 different strategies

    Warbow is considerably more effective for medium range than longbow. I’m interested in the core C:MW game, not a mod. And warbow is for medium range, while longbow is for long range? What?



  • Warsaw, I think you need to replace your armours. I have spoken at length to my armours (as any good ruler must), and he has assured me that a warbow has a much higher draw weight than your standard longbow the people use for hunting. This is an important thing to consider, as my people are not as well trained in archery as some of my enemies and their strength isn’t as strong, I cannot hope to out range them on the battlefield. A Dothraki army would overrun archers quickly though, if only I could convince them to wear armour.



  • @Daenerys:

    Warsaw, I think you need to replace your armours. I have spoken at length to my armours (as any good ruler must), and he has assured me that a warbow has a much higher draw weight than your standard longbow the people use for hunting. This is an important thing to consider, as my people are not as well trained in archery as some of my enemies and their strength isn’t as strong, I cannot hope to out range them on the battlefield. A Dothraki army would overrun archers quickly though, if only I could convince them to wear armour.

    Your support in this matter does not go unnoticed, Khaleesi. Ask me of anything your heart desires and it shall be yours.



  • Less options are less options and thus bad. Thats why removing one bow to make clearer niches is no option. For balancing I propose:

    Warbow:

    • specialized in single arrow damage
    • good hits to kill, low excess damage
    • relatively slow which hurts the overall damage output

    Longbow:

    • specialized in damage output (damage support)
    • more hits to kill but high excess damage
    • medium speed which causes high DPS (if you hit all your shots)

    Shortbow:

    • specialized in speed (flinch, harrass)
    • more hits to kill with low excess damage
    • high speed to hit many targets quickly

    Sling:

    • specialized in mobility
    • low damage spam OR
    • loss of speed when charged up
    • less damage output than shortbow


  • @Evil:

    Less options are less options and thus bad. Thats why removing one bow to make clearer niches is no option.

    You’ll have to support that statement with more than “and thus bad.”



  • @Evil:

    Less options are less options and thus bad. Thats why removing one bow to make clearer niches is no option. For balancing I propose:

    Warbow:

    • specialized in single arrow damage
    • good hits to kill, low excess damage
    • relatively slow which hurts the overall damage output

    Longbow:

    • specialized in damage output (damage support)
    • more hits to kill but high excess damage
    • medium speed which causes high DPS (if you hit all your shots)

    Shortbow:

    • specialized in speed (flinch, harrass)
    • more hits to kill with low excess damage
    • high speed to hit many targets quickly

    Sling:

    • specialized in mobility
    • low damage spam OR
    • loss of speed when charged up
    • less damage output than shortbow

    I’m not seeing balance here, honestly. What I’m seeing is a narrowing of each weapon’s available avenues for effectiveness. Having something for each situation is silly – look at what happened to Team Fortress 2, for example. At release, the game was pure and beautiful and from the simplicity of the weapon load-outs arose much complexity as a result of player creativity. Today, however, the game has become so bloated with options that its structure has become eroded and the gameplay diluted. A good way to look at it is to use the analogy of a good meal: let a few beautiful ingredients speak for themselves rather than masking said beauty with every spice in the cabinet.



  • I thought “less options” is enough. And the rest also shows that there ae enough niches for the three bows to coexist. Given that having three options is better than having two options (and if you add the Sling you got 4 option).

    While their basic role on the battlefield is about the same (ranged fire support) there is enough room for different playstyles and bow choices. The Warbow adds a sniper aspect, the Shortbow makes you rain arrows upon you opponents and the Longbow as most balanced option combines some speed with some damage for the highest DPS.

    The issue is not that there are too many bows but that one (Warbow) outshines the others in a way that one is very niche (Shortbow) and the other ends up as master of none (Longbow).



  • @Evil:

    I thought “less options” is enough.

    Do clarify yourself, as that statement is presently hollow. I gave a prime example as to why that statement is untrue in the context of game design.

    Longbow’s damage and range could be consolidated into shortbow’s lightness and speed and make for something spectacular, eliminating the need for separating the two, which are already quite similar. Shortbow is potent, but definitely lacks stopping power. Warbow greatly outshines the rest of the arsenal, yes.



  • @boogerjuice:

    Do clarify yourself, as that statement is presently hollow. I gave a prime example as to why that statement is untrue in the context of game design.

    That does not apply here as you don’t have 100 options but a quite small and discrete spectrum. While all 4 weapons can be classified as “long ranged fire support” they lean towards specific playstyles. Thats what I illustrated above. The sling with its chargeup and mobility is already pretty different to play - which leaves us with 3 bows on a “damage vs speed” scale. I agree it would be pretty silly to add more but having two weapons on each side of the spectrum and one in the middle is by no means bloated.

    There is nothing wrong with a fast choice, a strong choice and an intermediate choice. You don’t need to polarize everything in two directions. So instead of removing weapons its better to make them viable by nerfing the dominating choice (Warbow) while buffing the other choices in a way that gives them slightly different niches.



  • More variety = more good.


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