Discussion on how to make fighting, especially 1 v N's, more dynamic



  • The reintroduction of CFtP and the introduction of PiP are both good steps. CFtP is quite possibly the most important aspect of 1 v N fights, and PiP gives you the option to parry again if you don’t have room to riposte. PiP essentially replaces parrying with a riposte, which though cool was a little odd and unpredictable. CFtP and PiP are nice to have, but quite honestly, they’re not enough. They are both defensive options. You’re not going to win a fight by having the greatest defense unless your buddies bail you out, but what’s the fun in that?

    Fights in this game, 1 v 1, 1 v N, and N v N have all become less dynamic due to only a few pertinent factors. In descending order, sprint lockout, stamina values, the lack of team flinching are the most important ones I can think of.

    Sprint lockout is where, for .5 seconds after being flinched or parried, sprint is “locked out” and you’re forced to walk. Essentially, this was a nerf to “dancing” vanguards, but the implications this would have for all the classes are much more important. Not being able to sprint for .5 seconds after being flinched or parried is a huge nerf to any type of tactical maneuvering in all fights, be it 1 v 1, a 1 v N, or N v N. Your options in a 1 v 1 are severely limited since, save for mauls, dodging someone’s attack or trying to maneuver yourself to an easier position to parry are mostly impossible. Once you hit someone, all you can do is wait for them to attack. If they don’t attack, you can attack back. Drags, lookdowns, reverse overheads, and feints do give you a lot of options for attacking and defending, but 1 v 1 fights are remarkably slower and less lifelike, thus, less fun.

    Sprint lockout kills it for 1 v N fights. Whether you’re a knight, man at arms, archer, or vanguard, not being able to move around after getting hit or hitting someone’s parry almost always means instant death. The person you may have hit cannot sprint either, but his teammates most certainly can and you can bet they’ll be taking advantage of this. Even if you’re not “dancing,” not being able to maneuver yourself properly in a fight to keep everyone in your line of sight means you cannot take advantage of CFtP or PiP to defend yourself. Thus, when you’re flinched or parried by one enemy, the other enemies can swarm you on all sides, leaving you fully incapable of fighting back. Regardless of how good your reflexes are, you simply can’t fight back in this situation. This is very frustrating because it downplays individual skill by deliberately reducing your options.

    Another thing to note is how it affects different classes. Even though sprint lockout was supposed to limit the capabilities of high maneuverability classes like vanguards and men at arms, it really hurt all the classes. Knights have a harder time keeping pressure on vanguards and men at arm. Knights cannot continue pursuing if they’re stopped every few seconds by flinches and parries. Archers, with weapons like daggers and shortswords, can simply keep swinging and flinching, knowing that their enemy can’t quite escape. It hampers a vanguard’s ability to properly maneuver big weapons around without getting into awful hit trading sessions with everyone whilst simultaneously making it even harder for other classes to keep up with a vanguard’s speed. Some may consider this a good thing, but men at arms do suffer from not being able to avoid getting hit by using movement alone as a result as well. Basically, sprint lockout made it harder for all classes to do their jobs, rather than nerfing the maneuvering abilities of only 1 or 2.

    How does sprint lockout affect team fights? After you factor it all in, sprint lockout makes fighting in a group a lot less intense than it should be. There’s not much else to say on that topic that hasn’t been said previously.

    Stamina drains are another thing that have made this game seem a lot slower to me. I don’t like the new stamina values, but going back to the old stamina values doesn’t seem to be the best option either. The old values weren’t punishing enough, but the current stamina values are a little too punishing in my opinion, especially in light of the CFtP and the new PiP. Stamina values should be looked at in depth in a separate thread. That being said, I can give some of my ideas on this situation in this one.

    Not being able to crouch to regain stamina is rather sad. I liked that feature and thought it was fair. If you wanted to regain stamina, you’d have to stop yourself in a fight for a moment, leaving you open to a whole slew of things. It was a good way to make use of downtime. I wouldn’t mind seeing this feature returned, even if it were to a lesser degree than it was before. It certainly did help in 1 v N fights and gave reason for people to put on pressure in 1 v 1 fights to avoid the enemy from regaining too much stamina.

    CFtP is a very, VERY stamina intensive thing right now. I’m not sure of the exact values on this one, but it’s way too much to maintain a fight for very long against multiple people. CFtP isn’t even an “i skrewd up, free parrie” mechanic in a 1 v N fight. It’s quite literally necessary if you don’t want to be flinched after every hit you land. Whatever the values are for stamina right now, they don’t allow you to 1 v N very well without gassing in a few seconds. Changing stamina values would also change 1 v 1 dynamics, but is being able to do more with what you have a bad thing? I feel it would also add a little more fun and stop 1 v 1 fights against maa or vanguards from becoming stamina draining contests. I think some kind of adjustment to the stamina values is in order, one way or another.

    The lack of team flinch is another thing. Without it, a lot of people just swing straight through each other without worrying much of how it will affect their teammates. That being said, the majority of pubs never really cared anyway, but right now there’s no real punishment for it. Adding this sucker back in would discourage the good players from just swinging through their teammates to get kills and would punish the bad players for hurting their teammates. If you’re the lone wolf in a 1 v N, bad players flinching each other could be your saving grace. If you’re in a team of good players playing those equally as good, you’d have more room to maneuver knowing that the people around you are less likely to sacrifice their teammate’s health to kill you. While it could be argued that this mechanic is just as “clunky and boring” as anything else, being teamwhacked can never be made fun. At least with this feature there’s more punishment for making mistakes.



  • Stamina values for two handers could be adjusted. Having no sprint lockout makes this game look like Chivalry: Ballet Warfare. One guy running around swinging and grunting while another guy is crouching as standing really fast laughing his head off. That’s pretty much what happens when you combat dancing or kiting. Flinching team mates. Now I wouldn’t really mind either way this went. Though some people might get annoyed when Nooby mcTeamkillson decides to unleash his vanguard charge missing his target and flinching all his team mates nearby who then all die to the enemy as they cpu don’t do anything about it. It leads to rage which leads to abuse which leads to votekicks ultimately a worse community. Problem is people who don’t care don’t care regardless of whether they will flinch someone or not. There maybe a few who do but there ain’t many. It will make it easier for the 1 as the N will be getting flinched. But the other implications of it outweigh the bonus in combat. In a pub server at least.



  • Nice post! You could maybe add a TL:DR at the end summarizing your suggestions though.

    Sprint lockout:
    At the time I was happy for the sprint lockout addition because dancers were prevalent and I hated them. I was able to deal with them, but the fights were no fun, and it looked dumb. But sprint lockout is really frustrating and hinders you in 1vsN. I would love to see it removed again.

    Stamina regen:
    Not sure on this, I hated it for the same reason: It looked dumb. Basically someone sits down during a fight and looks like he is taking a shit. I am also a very defensive player, so I didn’t like people forcing me to push with it ;) There was a discussion about bringing stamina regeneration as a feature back for knights only to buff them, possibly with an extra animation like this. I really like that.

    Team flinch:
    Bring it back!

    Other ideas for discussion, just brainstorming:

    • receive stamina when being hit (e.g. half of lost HP) call it adrenaline
    • receive stamina when killing someone (could actually be OP in 1vs2 or 1vs3)
    • no flinch from projectiles/throwables/firepot (annoying as fuck)
    • allow parry in flinch (not sure if that is already the case) or let flinch not cancel the parry so when you got shot in the back you can still parry the incoming attack from front
    • no enemy closer than 10-20m => increased hp/stam regen rate


  • If team flinch is implemented, it absolutely has to be a server/admin option, and disabled on official servers. Pubs would be a nightmare, an absolute nightmare with team flinch.



  • I pretty much agree with everything the OP said. In short:

    1: Remove sprint lockout.

    2: Increase the size of the stamina pool, but not as large as pre-patch.

    3: Re-implement crouch to regen stamina faster.

    I would like to see the team flinch in competitive play, but not in pubs.



  • My biggest problem with 1 v N while playing brandistock or spear is the ridiculous long time that I can’t block after doing an overhead or stab. I know that I shouldn’t complain about the brandistock but this makes groupfights really annoying even though PiP helped a bit. And removing sprint lockout would help as well.



  • @fvonb:

    • no flinch from projectiles/throwables/firepot (annoying as fuck)

    That’s one of the reasons I hate archers in this game. It’s not because they’re so hard to deal with by themselves. However, just a single arrow, even from a dinky shortbow, is enough to flinch you during the last millisecond of a try-or-die moment and get you killed without you being able to do anything about it. That, by itself, is annoying as fuck and makes the game as a whole less fun.

    • receive stamina when being hit (e.g. half of lost HP) call it adrenaline

    I don’t like rewarding people for making mistakes. I can also see this being abused. For example, if you’re in a fight and you know the next swing will stun them if they parry it, the guy you’re fighting could just eat the swing and then regain their lost stamina to regain the initiative. This one I don’t quite like.

    • receive stamina when killing someone (could actually be OP in 1vs2 or 1vs3)

    This is a cool idea. It’s a little video gamey, but it’s still good. Rewarding someone for their hard effort by allowing them to keep going is what I think makes games satisfying. Plus, a bad player won’t really know what to do with the extra stamina they’ve just gained from killing someone, so this doesn’t affect pubs quite as much. It would, however, allow medium level to skilled players to eke out a few more hits before going down. Just gotta make sure the stamina gained is reasonable if it were to be implemented.



  • I really, really, would like to see sprint lockout removed. It really is just another one of those control limiting mechanics that was added to make up for other people being unable to manipulate their own controls as well.

    Stamina… I’m not sure on. I feel like I run out quickly, but I’m not sure if that’s the game or me wasting it on unnecessary actions. I do like the idea of increased stamina regen rate, though, rouch or not (though, I’m always up for something to keep my fingers busy all the time).

    Agree with flippy on the team flinch. I can’t imagine the blood-boiling rage that would emerge if being hit by team-mates not only damaged me but also made be incapable of doing anything. In competitive play, sure.



  • I’m sorry but you cannot have no sprint lock out with the current Vanguards knock back values.



  • @DokB:

    I’m sorry but you cannot have no sprint lock out with the current Vanguards knock back values.

    Made a thread about that: http://forums.tornbanner.com/showthread.php/18559-Vanguards-Speed-or-Knockback



  • @DerFürst:

    I don’t like rewarding people for making mistakes. I can also see this being abused. For example, if you’re in a fight and you know the next swing will stun them if they parry it, the guy you’re fighting could just eat the swing and then regain their lost stamina to regain the initiative. This one I don’t quite like.

    Well, I only want to stun him to be able to hit him. So if he decides to eat the swing I would be totally ok with it ;)
    I agree that it is somewhat rewarding being bad though.



  • I don’t think we should be introducing any new systems, like adrenaline. The health/stamina one we have now works well, there’s no need to add more.



  • i agree with pretty much if not all of this.

    Stamina values could definitely use adjustment, many team fights or 1v1’s end basically because you get stunned for too long and can’t do anything after a stam drain. I would even go as far to say i liked the old 1.5 lockout rather than 1.8… there’s no reason why the maul that 1 shots any class should not only get a free hit but a free KILL after stunning someone, they could easily get a poke to the head off for their free hit rather than having a guaranteed “let me think about the stun, start my windup, and surely aim for the head killing blow” which is why it’s up at 1.8 anyhow right? So that MAULS can get a free hit? Stupid in my opinion. But stamina drain usually is what ends most 1vN situations for sure, and can even completely ruin a GOOD 1v1 duel just from stamming out for the final blow.

    I would like sprint lockout removed but i think it would have to be carefully looked at since it would buff vanguards especially even further, not only because of the speed difference but the fact that they currently also have so much knockback, a spear or brandistock could constantly just run in and out on a knight especially, but also pretty much any other class having the extreme reach advantage and no consequence of having to parry. It would effectively work as a vanguard dodge more or less, same think with most other classes going against a knight since they’re slow. Either way, i would still like this removed.

    The team flinch… i agree that SOMETHING has to be done since a lot of the time you die in 1vN fights as you said because groups of enemies will swing through each other to get to you, and you can’t really even parry most of the time, and there’s no punishment for it if it’s just them vs. you because they will either just heal after you’re dead or continue slashing forward to the next victim. This would be horrible in pubs though, while it helps it’s also going to get you killed a lot since teammates in pubs generally don’t give a shit if they hit you along the way to kill somoene else, even if they don’t hit their mark… they still hit you and keep swinging. On the flipside, i can see this also being an accountability measure, where since you can also flinch teammates, your team won’t keep putting up with someone who is careless with their swings, i think there would be more votekicking for sure.

    Finally, the stam regen… i still think this should be a knight special only. Or maybe knights and vanguards as well. Men at arms can regen stamina quickly enough, we don’t need them constantly easily gaining all of their stamina back, or else the changes to the dodge will practically mean nothing when they can just get their dodges back even more quickly. Same thing with archers if TB decides to do any kind of stamina nerf for bow draws or something along those lines (which at this point we don’t know of course)



  • I originally thought sprint lockout was good in theory because of retarded dancers, but really it is more trouble than it’s worth. Dancers aren’t dangerous, sprint lockout is. A reduction in knockback would be a necessary accompaniment for its removal.

    CFTP could stand to consume less stamina, and the defensive feint window could be increased. I like the idea of receiving a stamina boost when killing someone.



  • @dudeface:

    I originally thought sprint lockout was good in theory because of retarded dancers, but really it is more trouble than it’s worth. Dancers aren’t dangerous, sprint lockout is. A reduction in knockback would be a necessary accompaniment for its removal.

    CFTP could stand to consume less stamina, and the defensive feint window could be increased. I like the idea of receiving a stamina boost when killing someone.

    Dancing and kiting looks pretty damn silly as well.

    I wouldn’t say to increase the stamina pool or even reduce CFtP stamina usage. But make two handed weapons use less stamina. Meaning MAA and archers don’t get a buff in melee while vanguards and knights do. Vanguards don’t really need one but knights do.



  • well cftp in general cannot, it’s just a combination of mechanics that would require attacks feints and parries to require less stamina since there is no cftp button that can be adjusted on it’s own.

    It’s kind of a question on what can take less stamina though, i would probably go with parries. Feints are very effective in getting a hit on someone so they should require more stamina naturally. Attacks can maybe drain less stamina if missed but by how much i don’t know. I think perhaps parrying could just require less stamina with there being more reasons and ways to parry now. Dodging obviously couldn’t require less stamina either. Also, if the question was whether to increase the stamina pool, you have to adjust those values again to compensate.



  • I agree with pretty much everything in the opening post. What can I say, DerFürst explained it very well. I guess I’d like to add that my main motivation to want to see these changes is exactly what Nabster wrote in his input.
    Also, I never thought of dancing nor crouch regen as anything “immersion breaking”.

    Also, I’d personally would like to able to start a parry in flinch. The flinch can still cancel parries, but I at least want a chance to raise it again after being hit. (Especially when archery is involved.)



  • I think sprint lockout should still be kept in for flinches. Nothing is more frustrating as a knight than to hit an escaping vanguard in the back, get slowed down because of the swing and see him escape to his team to regen safely. Turning your back, unless you are completely sure is a safe option at the time, shouldn’t be rewarded like that.

    It should always be more beneficial for you to parry the attack, then run for it. Vanguard knockback should be much reduced if sprint lockout on parry is removed, of course. The chasing mechanic would also need to be fixed. (It still should be, was sprint lockout on parry removed or not!)

    Stamina boost upon killing an enemy sounds like a great feature that would make kill chaining really satisfying, much more than it is now. But we should only have either this or the stamina regen boost on crouch, both included you’d never run out of stamina.

    Now, I won’t go to the subject of stamina values yet. If we are adding a way for the player to actively gain more stamina, we should do that first and see how it affects the game, only then balance stamina values.

    Team flinch: No. No. No. No. No. No.

    You’ll see much, much more hostility brew and pub servers will become an awful place to play in. I fucking hated team flinch back in the day, and thinking about those LMB spamming vanguards, present to this day, makes my skin crawl.



  • @afiNity:

    My biggest problem with 1 v N while playing brandistock or spear is the ridiculous long time that I can’t block after doing an overhead or stab. I know that I shouldn’t complain about the brandistock but this makes groupfights really annoying even though PiP helped a bit. And removing sprint lockout would help as well.

    This +1000000000000000

    Recovery time needs to be reduced drastically after killing or hitting an opponent



  • @CRUSHED:

    This +1000000000000000

    Recovery time needs to be reduced drastically after killing or hitting an opponent

    what if you could do the recovery parry only if you hit someone?


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