Flinching mechanic seriously needs some fixing!



  • With the removal of panic parry(thank god!) 1v1’s or 1v2’s feel a lot more challenging and skillful than before. But what about the 1vmany? I seem to recall a parry-into-parry mechanic that was added but so far I haven’t had as much use out of it as I should.

    The basic problem(or at least I see it as a problem) is that with panic parry gone the recovery of your swings leave you wide open. Of course, that makes sense. It’s the whole basic idea of recovery. That’s exactly why we wanted panic parry gone.

    …but what about all the flinching?

    Seems vague so I’ll list some scenario’s I’ve had the last few sessions. Note that none of these are duel-related, they’re all about teamplay.1. Flinching interrupts your attacks, your combos, your parries, pretty much everything. Except for your recovery, which is ignored for some reason. This is a problem in 1 vs many situations.

    Imagine yourself with a slow knight weapon(Messer or Maul) and doing an overhead.
    You miss the overhead. Enemy comes charging at you with a fairly damaging weapon and is actually capable of hitting you twice before you can parry. Again, I know, it’s what the removal of panic parry is supposed to do but still; two attacks? And they don’t flinch you while in recovery? Come on. In this scenario flinching(or interrupting) would actually be helpful but instead you’re forced to take 2 hits.

    I’m relatively certain 2 hits is the max but who knows? Foes might even be able to swing their Norse Sword 3x at you.

    2. Archers shouldn’t be flinching you at all.

    It’s too bad that I forgot the example scenario(it was a really good one!) but IMO archers simply shouldn’t flinch. I’m sure there’s a huge exploit to that I’m missing right now, but…

    Archers interrupting your attacks with their crossbows, bows or whatever has been in the game for a long time. It has been accepted. But I genuinely think that removal of that flinch would be fairly balanced. Not just the archer-haters would agree on this. Some people with balance in mind might agree as well.

    All in all, you on your own versus an archer doesn’t really change too much. Archers just gotta be careful not to throw that javelin at you too late. But it would help SO MUCH in 1 vs many situations. Parrying multiple incoming attacks is on it’s own pretty cool. So it would make sense, for balance’s sake, that archerfire doesn’t interrupt that parry instead of letting you take the damage from the 3 knights gangbanging you after hitting you once and dropping your guard.

    3. Men at Arms still have somewhat of an advantage.

    Don’t pay too much attention to this one. It’s probably due to my playstyle involving non-existent tactics. I’d also hate to, after Torn Banner finally listened and nerfed this class, bring up the “Dis class is OP” card.

    But as far as I’m concerned, the stamina increase on the dodges wasn’t the right way to nerf 'em. Especially with panic parry finally gone. Should have instead decreased the distance of the dodge because as of now, any random Man at Arms can just dodge backwards and attack you after you missed your attack. Not saying this is always the case. Just for most Men at Arms.

    The backwards dodge is far more commonly seen than a dodge to the side and I get why. All you need is good reflexes. Man at Arms attacks, you block, you attack(or riposte, whatever you prefer) and the Man at Arms will dodge backwards and stab you.

    Feinting helps. Just not against the non-noobs.

    4. Flinching is either unstable or has been changed recently.

    I recall reading(and experiencing) that both feinting and getting interrupted can only be done during wind-up. After that you’ll enter the release state and during it damage sources shouldn’t cancel your attack. Except that they do.

    Flinching behaves completely different from time to time. Archerfire cancels my attack, no matter what state it’s in. Really unnecessary.

    Men at Arms(or Knights with a secondary) can still interrupt my attack well into it’s release. I’m talking about where your weapon is mid-way throught it’s swing or sometimes even at it’s end when you drag. It will STILL be canceled.
    It would seem that this means the flinching mechanic has recently been changed, but…

    There are still scenarios where both people swing at each other, and both will get hit. That’s impossible if your attack can be interrupted at all times.

    Dancing Vanguards, dragging Maul-wielding Knights, these sort of things. I interrupt them during windup and it all works perfectly. If I interrupt too late I receive the blow. So why on earth do I get flinched all around in TO matches?

    There you have my list. Doesn’t really sound as convincing as I hoped it would but I still believe some of it had a point to it.



  • I like the fact that you can potentially hit someone twice in recovery. You would only be able to do it if you had a very fast weapon (daggers, HWS stab) and if they had a very slow weapon (one with a very long recovery). I think it’s fine. It’s your punishment for missing an attack with a very slow, damaging weapon.

    I think your second idea would be a reasonable way to nerf the archers, but the problem is that, weapons like the sling, or shortbow would become completely useless. Plus being flinched while taking damage is universal, and suddenly removing it just for archer projectiles would be a little arbitrary. I think the only nerfs archers really need are the ones listed in the other archer-nerf thread.

    For your third idea about reducing the dodge distance; absolutely not. I think the dodge distance is fine, in fact it really isn’t that far at all. If they do dodge backwards, they’ve put themselves out of the fight. You can just turn around and go smack one of their teammates in the back of the head while the MAA is playing catch-up. I think MAA, as a class right now is in a fine state. It’s just his weapons that need a little work. ie. HWS and Broadsword.



  • ive always said the flinch should be lowered, to allow fair combat otherwise its just exploiting a flawed combat mechanic to win a fight.

    had the flinch been lowered 8 months ago we would still have dodge attacks and all the other epicness that was removed based on opness, when really it was all just the flinch making it seem like the light classes attacks were op, the problem was the flinch allowing them 2 single attack back to back and nothing more.

    lower the flinch and you have way better (fairer) based combat that’s a bit more fast paced and even more epic unhindered by uneeded animation lockouts that offer up more free hits.



  • @Rickvs:

    1. Flinching interrupts your attacks, your combos, your parries, pretty much everything. Except for your recovery, which is ignored for some reason. This is a problem in 1 vs many situations.

    You got hit during recovery in a 1 vs many situation and then you expect to get an advantage out of it? No - thats not how the game is supposed to work. You get caught in recovery - you pay for it. (Would not like flinch to prolong recovery though - another reason to have no flinch in recovery).

    @Rickvs:

    2. Archers shouldn’t be flinching you at all.

    They should. Would be stupid to disable flinching for ranged weapons (they also hit and hurt you) and also reduce the impact of ranged attack speed even more.

    @Rickvs:

    3. Men at Arms still have somewhat of an advantage.

    They can dodge out of flinch. Then the dodge is usually long enough to get away from mostl attacks. Fix both (at least the back dodge should get a decrease in range). Further increase of dodge stamina would make the class weaker (which is not that bad) - but does not fix the frustrating things about fighting them (and it doesn’t help their weapon balance). Not primarily flinch related though.

    @Rickvs:

    4. Flinching is either unstable or has been changed recently.

    Thats actually a real problem with flinch. It mostly affects release flinch I think: sometimes you are hit and instead of comboing you go into recovery (thats how it should work), sometimes you attack seems to be canceled (I think this happens less often than you think - most of the time it might just cause a miss because of the attacks knockback) and sometimes you can still combo (unconfirmed but I believe I saw this a few times). Most likely a bug or latency issue.

    The other big problem: Hitting allies does not flinch them.
    Thats a huge issue in 1vsN engagements because your enemies can happily attack right through each other (sometimes you won’t see it coming until that spear emerges from your opponents belly and hits you) locking you in flinch while being able to attack just fine.

    I am not sure if it also affects ranged attacks - but if yes it could be a reason why ranged flinch is perceived unfair: Slingers/Shortbowmen just spamming projectiles into fights - if they hit an ally they do some damage (hooray for 50% teamdamage… not) but if they hit an enemy they also flinch him screwing up is fighting.



  • There’s nothing wrong with flinching.



  • There are definitely a few bugs with flinching but I think the mechanic as a whole does work. I can confirm what evil was saying about being able to combo once in a while while flinched. Happens to me maybe once a day.



  • 2. Archers shouldn’t be flinching you at all.

    YES YES YES absolutely yes. I wish it was like this since the first day i played chivalry. Seriously there is nearly no worse situation than being in a fight and getting flinched by an archer just an inch before your weapon connects. What happens in this moment? You get a shitload of legit damage (how does anyone expect you to pay attention to an archer who stands on the other side of the map while youre fighting someone who stands in front of you?!), you get flinched which often times costs you a sure kill. And now my favourite part: the person you were about to kill starts to faceroll his keyboard and ****s you like a bitch without actually having done anything besides being lucky about the archer on his team. I could destroy my pc everytime it happens cuz it is so frustrating. I feel like i did nothing wrong and i get punished twice. Pls stahp this mkay?

    And make flinch consistent it really sucks to die to noobs who were lucky that they did not flinch for whatever reason. I feel like it can happen with the maul kinda often, however prolly due to this weapons weird drag animations.



  • @lemonater47:

    There’s nothing wrong with flinching.

    There’s everything wrong with flinching after release.



  • @Skreshavik:

    There’s everything wrong with flinching after release.

    You mean during release



  • Yes…during…thank you.



  • WTF Am I reading!? Archers shouldn’t flinch!? Yeah go right ahead, destroy the shortbow completly.
    Your MAA part don’t make no fucking sense. It’s by far the hardest class of them all to master.

    Too much theory crafting not enough played time, go smash some more heads.



  • @Hitom:

    Your MAA part don’t make no fucking sense. It’s by far the hardest class of them all to master.

    Are you serious?



  • @Vesanus:

    Are you serious?

    Well in terms of the entire playerbase yes hitom is correct in saying MAA is pretty hard to master. Nooby McTeamkillson will have a far easier game playing as a vanguard or knight.



  • @Hitom:

    Your MAA part don’t make no fucking sense. It’s by far the hardest class of them all to master.

    Hardest class to master…… meh, maybe.
    You don’t have to master the class to dodge in the same direction over and over though.



  • I would say the Knight is the easiest for a newb considering his large hitpool and armor, then vanguard due to his nifty OP charge attack, after that archer. By far the most tecnical and finesse skilled class is Maa. Prove me wrong, I dare you.



  • @Hitom:

    I would say the Knight is the easiest for a newb considering his large hitpool and armor, then vanguard due to his nifty OP charge attack, after that archer. By far the most tecnical and finesse skilled class is Maa. Prove me wrong, I dare you.

    Tbh, the class technically with the highest skill ceiling is archer. Until you can make every single shot a headshot, call every feint, and parry all attacks.



  • @Flippy:

    Tbh, the class technically with the highest skill ceiling is archer. Until you can make every single shot a headshot, call every feint, and parry all attacks.

    I would say it has the widest skill gap rather than hardest to master. You can get some really really shit archers. They miss every shot except the ones that hit team mates backs and they try running from melee combat. It honestly doesn’t take long to get used to a particular bow (well a few hours) and they just have to get over that fear about melee. And have some basics in melee fighting down which they usually all have anyway.



  • @Flippy:

    Tbh, the class technically with the highest skill ceiling is archer. Until you can make every single shot a headshot, call every feint, and parry all attacks.

    Explain to me again how leading shots into a running opponent is sooo harder then being a squishy melee fighter where speed wins over damage? I’m dying to hear it.



  • @Hitom:

    Explain to me again how leading shots into a running opponent is sooo harder then being a squishy melee fighter where speed wins over damage? I’m dying to hear it.

    Archers are squishy fighters where speed wins over damage.
    And let’s be honest, there’s way too many knights with no clue how to defend theirself against a cudgel or a dagger.(press 2! press 2!!!)

    We’re derailing the thread too much now though. You believe the MAA is the hardest to master. I believe the MAA can be mastered but doesn’t have to be in order to win.



  • @Hitom:

    Explain to me again how leading shots into a running opponent is sooo harder then being a squishy melee fighter where speed wins over damage? I’m dying to hear it.

    Because even top tier archers don’t even make 50 percent of their shots. Flippy’s saying that it’s incredibly difficult to hit every shot which is a significant point since that is the skill ceiling of the archer class.


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