Someone please have a productive debate with me… please...



  • @Nohbdy111:

    It completely patches up the reach issues of one handers and it lets you side step like crazy if you get good at it. Call me crazy if you want, but I honestly don’t think MaA need the dodge. Although I understand removing the dodge is something that will probably never happen, I would especially expect more nerfs. Let’s just compare various methods of defense.

    Parrying
    -Requires both good timing and aim
    -Provides ripostes
    -Very Susceptible to many methods of bypassing them that require much more skill to counter all of them compared t other means of defense

    Blocking
    -Holdable, thus requiring no timing
    -Possesses a shield drop time and no riposte, so you offensive capabilities are limited
    -All means of bypassing blocks are much easier to counter than for parrying

    Dodge
    -Guarantees the control/momentum/initiative (whatever you think it’s called) of the fight upon use
    -Takes almost no skill to successfully use
    -Takes about the same and oftentimes less stamina to use than other defensive maneuvers
    -Can be used with a shield as well

    As you can see, there is really no good reason to parry as a MaA and I think this is bullshit. The dodge should be used when you really, really don’t want to get hit. It should neutralize the control of the fight at best, like a kick, but it happens to you. I’m not sure how this could happen, but it’s either that or drastically increase the stamina cost of dodge. It’s either A) Make dodge a 100% defensive maneuver only and does not give the MaA the control of the fight at all or B) Keep dodge as good as it is now, but make it cost much more than parrying because it’s so superior than parrying.

    I’ve been to hell and back discussing MaA… I’ve thought they’re UP, OP, balanced, every fuckin thing in all my competitive experience and this is my final conclusion: I don’t think MaA are OP, but I find it bullshit and somewhat broken that such an amazing ability should completely and utterly overshadow parrying itself. Give It distinct, noticeable downsides when compared to parrying such as lack of offensive prowess after use, or perhaps a heavy stamina cost, or something, I don’t fuckin care what as long as it works.

    Call me crazy if you want… I just might be.

    I’m still fuckin waiting for you MaA lovers to disprove all that I said because I’m never going to change my mind if you won’t even create counterarguments to my arguments, which is supposed to happen in any productive debate. If we aren’t going to do that then what the fuck are we doing here discussing MaA at all?



  • @Nohbdy111:

    Dodge
    -Guarantees the control/momentum/initiative (whatever you think it’s called) of the fight upon use

    Dodging backward doesn’t gain you initiative unless the opponent has whiffed an attack that has long recovery and even then the player who whiffed an attack can combo, combo parry, combo feint to parry etc.

    Dodging to the side can gain you initiative provided that the attacker’s weapon tracer doesn’t clip you and the reasons listed above.

    Dodging forward hasn’t been used since the patch that removed dodge+attack.

    @Nohbdy111:

    -Takes almost no skill to successfully use

    It requires timing and correct spacing. Its by no means very hard to use but you still have to be aware of your surroundings and react to your opponent.
    Saying it “takes no skill” just further shows your bias.

    @Nohbdy111:

    -Takes about the same and oftentimes less stamina to use than other defensive maneuvers

    Dodge requires more stamina than parry and blocking with a shield the two core defense mechanics in the game.
    The only thing that requires more stamina than a dodge is CFtP which isn’t a core defense mechanic as shown by the removal and the re-addition through the various patches.

    @Nohbdy111:

    -Can be used with a shield as well

    Why wouldn’t MAA be able to use his class ability with whatever load-out available?
    Also its not like that’s a huge advantage.
    shields suck



  • Dodge is chosen at the sacrifice of class HP and damage output.

    MaA can be effective without dodge? Yeh, probably.

    More effective than a vanguard, knight or archer? Uhh, no.

    So this really is a case of you just finding MaA too annoying and wanting them basically completely removed.



  • @Alyx:

    Dodging backward doesn’t gain you initiative unless the opponent has whiffed an attack that has long recovery and even then the player who whiffed an attack can combo, combo parry, combo feint to parry etc.

    Dodging to the side can gain you initiative provided that the attacker’s weapon tracer doesn’t clip you and the reasons listed above.

    Dodging forward hasn’t been used since the patch that removed dodge+attack.

    It requires timing and correct spacing. Its by no means very hard to use but you still have to be aware of your surroundings and react to your opponent.
    Saying it “takes no skill” just further shows your bias.

    Dodge requires more stamina than parry and blocking with a shield the two core defense mechanics in the game.
    The only thing that requires more stamina than a dodge is CFtP which isn’t a core defense mechanic as shown by the removal and the re-addition through the various patches.

    Why wouldn’t MAA be able to use his class ability with whatever load-out available?
    Also its not like that’s a huge advantage.
    shields suck

    +1 ^

    MAA is in a perfectly fine state. The only things with MAA that possibly need to be tweaked are some of the weapons, so it’s not just the Broadsword/HWS that top MAA use.



  • Okay, first I would like to say thank you and now I will debate.
    @Alyx:

    Dodging backward doesn’t gain you initiative unless the opponent has whiffed an attack that has long recovery and even then the player who whiffed an attack can combo, combo parry, combo feint to parry etc.

    How doesn’t dodging backwards give you the control of the fight? When the MaA back dodges, the Knight’s or Vanguard’s next decision is oppressed by what the MaA might do next. This exact same scenario is also seen when you are hit and the enemy comboes. Why? because in both of those scenarios the one dodging or the one comboing has the momentum. Allow me to break it down.

    Scenario:
    1. The MaA has a broadsword and the Knight has a broadsword as well
    2. The MaA’s far superior run and walk speed means that he will be guaranteed to have initiative in the beginning of the fight
    3. Let’s just say that the Knight parries the MaA’s first attack and then feints the MaA
    4. The MaA back dodges and the the Knight doesn’t wind up another attack directly after his feint, so he can run and gain some ground to reach the MaA again(keep in mind he has been sprinting towards the MaA the entire time)
    5. It’s step two all over again, the Knight has to run the extra distance to hit the MaA and the MaA has the run speed to initiate upon the Knight and interrupt him before he can get in range and successfully pull off an attack

    So going back to step three, what if the MaA had feinted that Knights initial parry? What if the Knight anticipated this and attacked instead of parried? What if the MaA caught this in time and FTPed? Then what if the Knight feinted that FTP, expecting it? The classic infinite loop of possibilities involved in the mind games of this game, enough rambling about it, but the point is that the MaA’s action starts said loop. This means he has the initiative; the Knight’s decision is made according to what his enemy might do. The MaA is in control. The situation is the same if the Knight decides to whiff right after the feint and the combo and then either attack or parry, depending on what the MaA |might| do.

    You may also notice that this exact same scenario happens all over again when the MaA back dodges. This is initiative. The MaA always has control over the Knight because of the dodge and 5 times. 5 times is just silly when the Knight, the most tanky class in the game, dies in only 4 hits.

    Dodging to the side can gain you initiative provided that the attacker’s weapon tracer doesn’t clip you and the reasons listed above.

    Side dodges do the same thing. You can catch them with a slash at times, but the side dodge is really just a better back dodge if the MaA is good at using it right. I’ll agree that takes some skill, but the payout of this skill, which isn’t even really all that skillful, is insanely high.

    Dodging forward hasn’t been used since the patch that removed dodge+attack.

    I’m gonna have to disagree. I see good MaA use it.

    It requires timing and correct spacing. Its by no means very hard to use but you still have to be aware of your surroundings and react to your opponent.
    Saying it “takes no skill” just further shows your bias.

    Caught me red handed, I worded that poorly. I was trying to get across the fact that compared to what other melee classes have to do to achieve what the dodge does is much more skillful.

    Dodge requires more stamina than parry and blocking with a shield the two core defense mechanics in the game.

    I don’t think it does, especially against some two handed weapons. It might cost more stamina to dodge against small weapons, but against a mid-high damaging two handed weapon I have a very, very hard time believing that parrying that with a one hander will cost less that 20 stamina. Another flaw I see in your logic is that, even if dodge was more stamina costly than blocking or parrying, that does not at all justify why the dodge only costs 20 stamina. What does?

    The only thing that requires more stamina than a dodge is CFtP which isn’t a core defense mechanic as shown by the removal and the re-addition through the various patches.

    It’s not a core defensive mechanic, true, but that’s also why it’s called, “Combo Feint to Parry”. It’s a combination of three core game mechanics and nothing more.

    Why wouldn’t MAA be able to use his class ability with whatever load-out available?
    Also its not like that’s a huge advantage.
    shields suck

    Shields don’t suck, but let’s not start debating about an unrelated balance topic. I just find it a bit broken that MaA can have shields that are defensively dominant to parries on top of the defensive benefits of the dodge and that shields are supposed to at a slight disadvantage offensively compared to parrying, and yet they also get the incredible offensive benefits of the dodge. I don’t really know what to do about this besides make it so dodging neutralizes the control of the fight as I have suggested, so that dodging does not patch up shields’ core weakness.

    @NabsterHax:

    Dodge is chosen at the sacrifice of class HP and damage output.

    Sacrifice of class hp and damage output? I think you meant two different things here. I think you meant that the dodge let’s you trade damage output and stamina for more “health” or survivability, right? But I don’t agree with this. How does it sacrifice damage output when the only time you should be dodging is when you have stopped dealing any damage output at all because he parried your attack and you’re going on the defensive. I also don’t agree that trading 20 stamina for up to 350% more survivability is even a remotely fair trade.

    MaA can be effective without dodge? Yeh, probably.

    More effective than a vanguard, knight or archer? Uhh, no.

    So this really is a case of you just finding MaA too annoying and wanting them basically completely removed.

    No, I was just emphasizing how remarkably good the MaA’s run speed is. I actually want to play MaA in comp along with Vanguard and Knight, but I don’t like feeling cheap. I think the MaA would be viable without dodge, would they be competent compared to other classes? probably not. Would people like that change? hell no.



  • @Nohbdy111:

    You may also notice that this exact same scenario happens all over again when the MaA back dodges. This is initiative. The MaA always has control over the Knight because of the dodge and 5 times. 5 times is just silly when the Knight, the most tanky class in the game, dies in only 4 hits.

    Its initiative when the opponent whiffs an attack and doesn’t combo or combo-feint.
    So in the best case scenario its 20 stamina for initiative. Which is more than a feint.

    Yes the MAA has 5 dodges available at full stamina.
    Is he going to use all of his stamina dodging?
    I don’t think that would be effective as it costs stamina when you whiff an attack, parry, feint, combo, combo feint, combo feint to parry etc. etc.

    @Nohbdy111:

    Sacrifice of class hp and damage output? I think you meant two different things here.

    He meant that the class’s drawbacks are having less HP and less potential damage output. (Comparative to Vanguard and Knight)



  • I support you nohbdy 100%, the maa doesn’t need dodge, it already has insanely high speed and its weapons have great dps that will 2-3 hit any class, broadsword with just pokes and overheads will 3 hit knights and a stab overhead will 2 hit vans, 2 lmbs will easily kill another maa/archer. Knights against maa is extremely difficult for the knight due to the knight’s weapons being so short with his slow speed



  • @Alyx:

    Its initiative when the opponent whiffs an attack and doesn’t combo or combo-feint.
    So in the best case scenario its 20 stamina for initiative. Which is more than a feint.

    How isn’t it initiative in my previous scenario? If I’m obviously misunderstanding how that isn’t initiative, please explain.

    Yes the MAA has 5 dodges available at full stamina.
    Is he going to use all of his stamina dodging?

    Of course not, but he could, couldn’t he? In team fights if they were being focused by multiple opponents, instead of just dying like the other classes, they actually have 5 life savers and disengagements at the same time to stall time for holding an objective, for your team to take advantage and hit them in the back as they focus you, or to stall time until the team comes to help the MaA

    I don’t think that would be effective as it costs stamina when you whiff an attack, parry, feint, combo, combo feint, combo feint to parry etc. etc.

    Why would you whiff an attack? Why would you parry when dodge is completely superior? You might not always feint, but of course you should I’ll give you that one, although it doesn’t justify 20 stamina for a dodge because your argument goes both ways. “You’re not going to dodge 5 times because of other stamina costs” How about “Your not going to feint 6 times because of other stamina costs”? Other stamina costs don’t justify the low stamina cost of such an amazing move. Comboing doesn’t cost stamina my friend. Combo feinting too huh, this goes back into my feinting statement and it just looks like you’re trying to name as many things as possible to make your argument look more solid. As for feint to parries, that’s a combination of two core game mechanics and I can say pretty much the same thing about this as what you say about combo feints.

    He meant that the class’s drawbacks are having less HP and less potential damage output. (Comparative to Vanguard and Knight)

    Less hp seems inaccurate when their special ability effectively gives them the most hp. As for damage output, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. The Longsword and Sword of War have low damage output, but they’re great weapons. That’s also why one handers are so damn fast, to compensate for the damage.

    I’m going to be completely honest here. I really want to be wrong, but I just don’t see it. I really want to play all melee classes when they’re all balanced, but MaA just doesn’t seem balanced to me right now.



  • If you remove the dodge, what’s left? A one handed knight with low health and a mildly faster footspeed. MAA is fine, quit whining.



  • @Flippy:

    If you remove the dodge, what’s left? A one handed knight with low health and a mildly faster footspeed. MAA is fine, quit whining.

    Now you’re just being straight up ignorant and rude. Want to be that way? Fine by me, I will too.

    MaA can be effective without dodge? Yeh, probably.

    More effective than a vanguard, knight or archer? Uhh, no.

    So this really is a case of you just finding MaA too annoying and wanting them basically completely removed.

    No, I was just emphasizing how remarkably good the MaA’s run speed is. I actually want to play MaA in comp along with Vanguard and Knight, but I don’t like feeling cheap. I think the MaA would be viable without dodge, would they be competent compared to other classes? probably not. Would people like that change? hell no.

    It should neutralize the control of the fight at best, like a kick, but it happens to you. I’m not sure how this could happen, but it’s either that or drastically increase the stamina cost of dodge. It’s either A) Make dodge a 100% defensive maneuver only and does not give the MaA the control of the fight at all or B) Keep dodge as good as it is now, but make it cost much more than parrying because it’s so superior than parrying.

    You learned how to fucking read, so do it before you look like an ass again in the future.

    Read the god damn thread title for fuck’s sake. I’m not getting into this any further, this thread is for productive discussion and if you aren’t going to do that then get the fuck out. I don’t want this to be like every other thread that ever existed, okay?



  • Nohbdy, play MAA in a scrim against high-level players. Since it apparently has such a massive advantage over all classes then you should do very well with it even if you’ve never played it.

    Plus all you’re doing is a bunch of theory crafting. Go MAA and try to duel NinjaCub, Dolo, Mike Oxlong, RAW BONER, no matter how many theoretical scenarios you come up with where the MAA has this “massive advantage” you claim it has, you’ll get wrecked by them. That’s just a fact. If I went MAA against any of them, I’d likely get man-handled.

    Since I REALLY don’t feel like reading 10 1/2 paragraphs, I’ll just respond to this.

    1. The MaA has a broadsword and the Knight has a broadsword as well
    2. The MaA’s far superior run and walk speed means that he will be guaranteed to have initiative in the beginning of the fight
    3. Let’s just say that the Knight parries the MaA’s first attack and then feints the MaA
    4. The MaA back dodges and the the Knight doesn’t wind up another attack directly after his feint, so he can run and gain some ground to reach the MaA again(keep in mind he has been sprinting towards the MaA the entire time)
    5. It’s step two all over again, the Knight has to run the extra distance to hit the MaA and the MaA has the run speed to initiate upon the Knight and interrupt him before he can get in range and successfully pull off an attack

    Here you’re assuming the knight will sprint straight forward towards the MAA after the MAA dodges backwards. NOT A SINGLE GOOD KNIGHT (or vanguard/archer for that matter) WHO’S WORTH HIS SALT would sprint straight towards an MAA in a duel or in a teamfight. It’s suicide. Of course the MAA is going to have control over the fight IN A DUEL when he dodges backwards. The knight either has to wait the MAA out or take the offensive. That’s a duel scenario. It doesn’t matter. That’s just what happens.

    However in a teamfight, if I, or any other player who’s worth his salt attacks a MAA and he dodges backwards, I say “goodbye” and go smack his teammates. Because the MAA dodged backwards, he can’t assist his teammates during the ensuing fight. This is why the spear is such a good weapon, you can zone MAA very easily with it. Same with Brandi, Fork, or Halberd. I would never engage an MAA after he dodged backwards. It’s stupid. The only time you would ever want to do this is of course if you have to kill him to move on after you’ve wiped his team, and in that case it’s 2 or more vs 1, which if played correctly, is extremely easy.

    ALSO in a teamfight, knights try to ignore MAA as much as possible. Vanguards are the best matchup against them, completely countering their dodges with the drags. So all your theory crafting is based on scenarios where the player fighting the MAA either doesn’t know what he’s doing, or makes such a terrible mistake he deserved to die anyways.

    Go play MAA in a high-level scrim, then tell us it’s extremely easy and has a massive advantage. Take a screenshot of you doing just as well as MAA as Rumpel, or Kwazi, or Mystikkal, or Vier etc. It’s fucking hard, and dodges can fuck you just as easily as they can save you. ESPECIALLY if the enemy team has vanguards who’re worth their salt (I like that phrase) who can zone you so hard your butthole will be clenched tight enough for you could squash a coconut.

    TL;DR Theory crafting means nothing if they can’t be applied in-game, Knights would always try to avoid engaging MAA in teamfights and good ones would never make the mistake to attack a MAA head on without backup, vanguards who are worth their salt **** MAA’s. Just look at Ninja Cub or RAW BONER.



  • I hate MAAs as much as you do but that’s only because I play as archer most of the time. You see those techniques rank 20-35 MAA all use? The dodge back stab, side dodge stab and stab, stab and stab? I have a hard time dealing with it as archer because of the range of my short sword. I still haven’t nailed down how to properly parry those side dodge stabs either but you know what? When I fought those MAAs as well as high ranked MAAs as a knight with a broadsword I didn’t have any problem at all killing them.

    I now had the health to take one or two missed parries as well as the stamina to deal with a fast class. With the increased MAA stamina cost for dodging, I could just wait them out. Most MAAs waste so much of their stamina dodge attacking or dodging out of strikes. All I do is just make em waste that stamina by succesfully parrying those side dodge stabs as well as force them to use dodge as a defensive technique. Soon enough they will be breathing heavily and act just like an archer.

    While I do believe that MAAs are the best 1 vs 1 class, they are by no means unstoppable or completely unbalanced.



  • Well that’s not productive at all Nohbdy. I think discussing all this theoretical stuff is a waste of time though. What matters most is what actually happens in scrims. And what I’ve noticed is that maa’s just aren’t as deadly anymore. It takes longer to kill them sure but it also takes longer for them to kill enemies.

    Conversely, when I play maa, I get ripped to shreds by archers. If their archer focuses me and tags me with an arrow, I’m neutered for the entire engagement. This happens to vanguards somewhat but they can use their range. Knights can of course tank an arrow and be fine in most scenarios. Don’t like fighting a dodging maa? Don’t. You shouldn’t chase after maa’s in scrims. They’re distractions which makes them really good on defense but not quite as good on offense.

    So the theoretical talk is jumbly and doesn’t really matter. Play in more scrims, and if you don’t go into them with a bias then you’ll find that maa is fine.



  • +1 Flippy & Karasu

    I really think you should try to play it in a scrim against a good squad.



  • I have to admit lately that dealing with Man at arms is harder than it was prior. Mostly due to the removal of panic parry. Cftp works well in most instances, but the speed of a side-dodging maa leaves me in the dust. Panic parry was easier, and less involved. Cftp feels sluggish next to the speed of dodge.

    I’m not ready to make a claim on balance yet though, since it’s quite possible I’m not fully refreshed on cftp as I once was. For now, I do feel like maa have an edge. We’ll see.



  • @The:

    I have to admit lately that dealing with Man at arms is harder than it was prior. Mostly due to the removal of panic parry. Cftp works well in most instances, but the speed of a side-dodging maa leaves me in the dust. Panic parry was easier, and less involved. Cftp feels sluggish next to the speed of dodge.

    I’m not ready to make a claim on balance yet though, since it’s quite possible I’m not fully refreshed on cftp as I once was. For now, I do feel like maa have an edge. We’ll see.

    Arguably in duels yes. Especially against knights. Although CFtP is just as fast as recovery parry. Just more difficult to execute.



  • I don’t get it, backdodging MAAs isn’t a problem, I can reach them with a shortsword with no effort at all. The only problem is that you can’t riposte on a backdodging MAA unless you use one of the longer VG weapons, like spear or halberd.
    MAAs dodging forward and around to my back on the other hand are a bit harder because I have to turn 180 degreece just to be able to block them.



  • @Xylvion:

    I don’t get it, backdodging MAAs isn’t a problem, I can reach them with a shortsword with no effort at all.

    Can you tell me your trick? Whenever fighting a MaA or fighting as MaA it seemed pretty easy to evade most attacks (up to the Zweihänders overhead attack) with a simple well timed back dodge.

    The dodge (at least the backwards dodge) is too long - the way it works right now in functions as both an all purpose defence and reach advantage negator (MaA+Broadsword effectively outreaches all weapons but the very longest: Zweihänder*, Bardiche, Halberd, Spear and Brandistock). You could either nerf MaA elsewhere (reducing their movement speed, further increasing the stamina cost on dodge, adding even more cooldowns, nerfing their weaponry**) as compensation but it takes the fun away from the class, makes them even weaker in team fights and retains the frustrating element of fighting them.

    Or you could just reduce the distance dodged to make it less of a 4m teleport and more if an actual dodge.

    *The stab seems to be long and/or slow enough to hit MaA.
    **Very poor choice as it would mean to nerf weapons used by all classes and the issues are not weapon related (Broadsword just works best with them - fix the issues and it does not outcompete the others).



  • Decreasing dodge distance is a terrible idea and would buff it in most situations. My argument from a different thread:

    In a way though, a shorter dodge could be stronger. As long as they’re dodging and avoiding an attack, they are much closer to you and much more equipped to attack you. This would actually make dodge more useful to attack and less to defend which isn’t the intention. In live, sometimes dodge takes the maa too far out of the fight because of how far it is. And also, a shorter dodge means a quicker dodge. Which means they can attack much sooner after they start to dodge.



  • I never said something about also increasing the speed - dodge should still take about the same time (this way it would also look less teleporty).

    The rest is intended though - to make dodge more of a utility tool that is fun to use and might also help more in 1vsN instead of this “I evade everything” defensive troll-move.


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