A Possible (Partial) Solution to Solving Feints



  • EDIT: Okay, so after reading a few replies that seem to be misinterpreting this post, I need to put a disclaimer:

    Nothing here is meant to imply that any changes are needed for the feints themselves. No window changes, no speed changes, no animation changes, no nothing changes. This suggestion is, in fact, specifically meant to avoid anything like that.

    Feints. Whether you love em or hate em, it’s clear that there are a LOT of complaints about them. Personally, I find nothing more irritating than having a fun experience in a Duels server ruined by an MaA who’s decided it would be “fun” and “totally not annoying as all fuck” to feint with the Holy Water Sprinkler. Legitimate? That can be argued all day. But I think most people would agree that an opponent like this is certainly less fun to fight, whether you win or not. At the same time, feints are good for plenty of practical actions as well. You can stop yourself from throwing an attack once you realize you’ll miss, you can avoid hitting a teammate, you can feint a stab to cause an MaA to dodge sideways, combo feint to parry, etc. So, they shouldn’t (and won’t), be taken out of the game. But what to do about abuse of the mechanic?

    Well, what about letting people kick during during parry recovery? While this wouldn’t completely shut down feinting, it would give people a fighting chance against face huggers using fast weapons. Charged kicks wouldn’t work, to avoid being able to shield stun as a riposte attack. There are obviously some other consequences involved with this, but overall, I feel that the benefit is worth the changes. My biggest concern would be that missed attacks are less punishable, but I also don’t think it would be a huge issue, certainly nowhere near as bad as what panic parry did.

    One possibility would be to make this move cost an absurd amount of stamina, 1/3 - 1/2. It would prevent the mechanic from being used all of the time, but it would give people one last desperate option if someone has just feinted them with the Norse Sword. Because, let’s face it: your reflexes need to be superb to consistently wait for the grunt and block.

    I’m interested in any feedback on this, but especially the competitive community’s, who will have more insight into the mechanics involved than me. And please, don’t say “feints are perfectly fine as is.” Because no, they are not. To the few of you out there who can consistently read feints on every weapon in the game: congratulations, that’s great. But to 95% of players, they’re a constant gamble, and a constant drain on the fun of Chivalry.



  • doesnt need changes

    /thread



  • I don’t necessarily hate feints. But they are the most giant and common example of differences in playstyle.
    There are simply a lot of players who do hate feints. If I had to choose, I’d hate them too.(only offensive feints, not cancelling your attack that’s about to hit a teammate, etc.)

    From a TO balance PoV, I strongly dislike fighting multiple spear/brandistock-wielding vanguards, all of them feinting. IMO some weapons are utterly predictable with feints, others are nearly impossible to read due to choppy animations.(think pre-patch Bearded Axe)

    If someone feints me, I’ll probably try to feint him back a few hits later. But like I said, a shitton of people truly do despise feints and so I’ve gotten used to duels without them. I don’t care if you feint all the time in a duel. But I hate it when just as I thought we were having a nice fight you feint all of a sudden. If you’re gonna feint, do it from the start.

    Feints make for different playstyles. Without feints you’re gonna have a lot of long-lasting fights reminding of cheap Hollywood medieval battle scenes.(excluding the unrealistic drags, of course.) The problem to this is that you’re barely accessing half of the game. You never learn about CTFP or basically anything about feinting because you assume the Q key being there is all there is to know.
    I prefer the longer lasting no-feint duels. I’m not against feints. I just prefer not having to fight against them.

    With feints you speed the duel up a notch and makes the combat much faster-paced.

    Also, to end the post with a more general conclusion most others on the forums will agree with:
    Feints are fine the way they are. And definitely not abusable.



  • But what to do about abuse of the mechanic?

    No, just no. There’s no such thing as abuse of anything. There’s no such thing as abusing rocket jumping, abusing drags, abusing quick scoping, abusing jumps, abusing crouch jumping, abusing anything. It’s a game mechanic that dramatically raises the skill ceiling, and if it was nerfed in any way, the game would die.

    And please, don’t say “feints are perfectly fine as is.” Because no, they are not.

    You asked for the competitive community’s insight, here it is. Feints are perfectly fine as is.

    EDIT: I know where you’re coming from. I used to be anti-feint too, back in July when I was a mid-skill pubstomper. But once I started playing competitively I saw the error of my ways, and I went from hating feints, to loving them dearly.



  • Feints are damn near perfect right now. Still work great against good players but not the elite ones.



  • @Flippy:

    EDIT: I know where you’re coming from. I used to be anti-feint too, back in July when I was a mid-skill pubstomper. But once I started playing competitively I saw the error of my ways, and I went from hating feints, to loving them dearly.

    Lol you were so fucking annoying. Still are, but in different ways =)



  • @Karasu:

    Lol you were so fucking annoying. Still are, but in different ways =)

    Thanks, Karasu.



  • I see a lot of trolling potential in your approach and don’t really understand how kicking in recovery helps you after falling for a feint?

    @Flippy:

    You asked for the competitive community’s insight, here it is. Feints are perfectly fine as is.

    I still believe stab feints are a tad too hard to read.

    @Rickvs:

    I don’t care if you feint all the time in a duel. But I hate it when just as I thought we were having a nice fight you feint all of a sudden. If you’re gonna feint, do it from the start.

    This is really annoying. Man up and feint the whole time but don’t be a prick and throw the first feint in the third round of a duel when we we’re both down to 20hp already.



  • @Flippy:

    No, just no. There’s no such thing as abuse of anything. There’s no such thing as abusing rocket jumping, abusing drags, abusing quick scoping, abusing jumps, abusing crouch jumping, abusing anything. It’s a game mechanic that dramatically raises the skill ceiling, and if it was nerfed in any way, the game would die.

    You asked for the competitive community’s insight, here it is. Feints are perfectly fine as is.

    EDIT: I know where you’re coming from. I used to be anti-feint too, back in July when I was a mid-skill pubstomper. But once I started playing competitively I saw the error of my ways, and I went from hating feints, to loving them dearly.

    A few things to say to this:

    First off, saying that there’s no such thing as abuse of mechanics is simply wrong. If there’s one particular technique in a game that is almost a guaranteed win, everyone will be forced to use it, and the game will be dumbed down in general. Please note: I’m not saying that’s the case with feinting. But that line of thinking is incorrect.

    Also, I’m not suggesting a nerf of the feint in any way. I’m suggesting adding another option to counter it. Nerfing lowers the diversity of combat, adding new mechanics increases it.

    As for asking the competitive community’s opinion, I was specifically referring to the idea of kicks being allowed (at a heavy stamina cost) during parry recovery, not your general opinions on feinting. Because, no offense intended, I’m not particularly interested. Flippy, you yourself said that you didn’t like feints until you began playing competitively. I understand that they work great in that format, where everyone is trying to use every mechanic to the best of their ability. And again, let me reiterate:

    I DO NOT WANT TO NERF FEINTING.

    That being said, you guys need to realize that most players don’t think along the same lines as you. Look up the “echo chamber” effect. I have to say, while I do respect the players in the competitive scene, you tend to echo like crazy. It’s not surprising, as this is a small, unique game with a very high skill ceiling, and the good players have every right to feel pride at being good. But every now and then, take a step back and try to approach the game from an average player’s viewpoint. Most people dislike the way this works. Are they not entitled to their opinion as well?



  • @Eic:

    I see a lot of trolling potential in your approach and don’t really understand how kicking in recovery helps you after falling for a feint?

    They feint, you parry, they go in for the follow up, you kick them back instead of ducking/circling and hoping for the best. You’re still at a disadvantage (again, high stamina cost), but you’re not dead.



  • Feints don’t need any change. They’re perfectly fine as they are now. IMO even defensive feint windows don’t need rising, it would just make actual aggressive feints much harder to time.



  • Oh you meant parry recovery. I should sleep.



  • @Mockingbirch:

    Are they not entitled to their opinion as well?

    Of course they are. Flippy isn’t saying otherwise. He just gave his competitive opinion which is what you asked for.



  • Some weapons are just ridicolous with feints, especially the HWS as you mentioned, but also norse/hatchet, even more so in combination with a shield. Then there’s GS, fork, SOW and billhook which I got problems with, but I know that others don’t. I don’t think feints should be nerfed, if so maybe “feint-chains” should be, like 2-3 feints in a row before the attack could cost more stamina, but it’s already stamina heavy so I’m not sure. In pub TO, which I play the most, you can’t affoard to feint in 5v1 situations, you have to use footwork and drags, stamina management is the key. If you’re in a 1v1 or 1v2 feinting can be really helpful and get you out of the situation a lot faster.



  • @Xylvion:

    Some weapons are just ridicolous with feints, especially the HWS as you mentioned

    hws feints are easily readable and easy to force hittrades on



  • @Karasu:

    Of course they are. Flippy isn’t saying otherwise. He just gave his competitive opinion which is what you asked for.

    Yes, of course. And if someone were to say something along the lines of “well, a good player could abuse this mechanic by (insert action here)” that would be the competitive insight I’m asking for. I don’t really see how this could be abused, but people who know the game better might. What tends to irritate me is when high levels come in and say things like “feints are absolutely perfect because the competitive community says they are.” No, sorry, that’s an argument I don’t buy. Convince me that something is good for the playerbase, not the few players who have mastered the game. Most people I talk to online find the current feinting system annoying. They’re not “wrong” just because they’re not level 50s.



  • @Mockingbirch:

    Yes, of course. And if someone were to say something along the lines of “well, a good player could abuse this mechanic by (insert action here)” that would be the competitive insight I’m asking for. I don’t really see how this could be abused, but people who know the game better might. What tends to irritate me is when high levels come in and say things like “feints are absolutely perfect because the competitive community says they are.” No, sorry, that’s an argument I don’t buy. Convince me that something is good for the playerbase, not the few players who have mastered the game. Most people I talk to online find the current feinting system annoying. They’re not “wrong” just because they’re not level 50s.

    Nobody on this thread said “feints are absolutely perfect because the competitive community says they are.” We just said that feints were perfect. I elaborated a little bit on mine because I tend to keep my balance arguments simple unless it requires an extensive explanation or someone asks for one.

    As far as feint balance goes, in most scrims it boils down to mindgames. Some people attack through your feints and just combat them with aggression in general. Recently though, some of the top players just read them and watch you waste your stamina. An example of this was in the recent NA 5v5 TO, where in a Tempest v Tempest match I was able to get my friend Omega with one SOW feint the whole match. That’s it. I was just wasting my stamina because he actually set aside hours trying to get better on reading feints.

    Now of course, only a few elite players can do this so you might argue that we shouldn’t balance the game based on what only a handful of players can do. I’m inclined to agree, but there’s just so many other ways to defend against feints that any rank 30 would be perfectly capable of doing. You simply use team tactics to make feints nearly worthless. So in a scrim or pub you would team up with a buddy and make sure you guys are always fighting together. Being aggressive most of the time, and if one of you gets feinted, then your buddy should be ready to punish the feinter.

    This is something that even an average pubber should be capable of if they actually care to try. The reason why these pubbers are wrong though is because they just bitch about anything and everything that kills them and don’t normally care enough to put hundreds of hours of practice in a competitive game.

    We shouldn’t let these unmotivated players ruin balance and game mechanics for the players who care though.



  • I use feints a lot, it makes sense to me that the attack followed from a feint should deal less damage, about 20% or something. With the right % it really mixes up the weapons as some weapon wont be affected by a damage reduction in their HTK, whilst some will, which is fine. It means some weapons will inherently be better for feinting, if you see people wielding them you know that they are probably going to use feints.

    It also leads to extra player choice. Should I feint and cost my self an extra HTK for an increased chance to hit or should I go for the drag to try and get the full damage in?

    IMO this is the only needed feature, I would likely still opt to use feints often even if it cost me an extra hit or 2 to kill.



  • @Toll:

    I use feints a lot, it makes sense to me that the attack followed from a feint should deal less damage, about 20% or something. With the right % it really mixes up the weapons as some weapon wont be affected by a damage reduction in their HTK, whilst some will, which is fine. It means some weapons will inherently be better for feinting, if you see people wielding them you know that they are probably going to use feints.

    It also leads to extra player choice. Should I feint and cost my self an extra HTK for an increased chance to hit or should I go for the drag to try and get the full damage in?

    IMO this is the only needed feature, I would likely still opt to use feints often even if it cost me an extra hit or 2 to kill.

    The cost of feints is stamina. Feints have been nerfed enough to where it’s frequently inefficient to use them in scrims. We don’t need to nerf the damage too just because you think it “makes sense.” Just “making sense” isn’t a balance argument.



  • It’s been a very long time since I ever posted about feints, though I did it so much I still feel like this may be beating a dead horse. Still, I’m compelled to post anyways.

    Why do I dislike feints so much? I asked myself that question a lot. It breaks down simply enough. No matter how much practice I put in, I am unable to consistently read them. I don’t know any who can. This means that a fight with feints is over faster, and favors the aggressor. It also means that anticipation is king, reaction is secondary. Without feints, it’s exactly the opposite (unless you’re fighting maa).

    That’s as succinctly as I can put it, your preference for feints is down to your fighting style. Those who enjoy being on the attack more, will love it. Though I do have another reason to dislike feinting. Frankly, beyond the fact that I am unable to defend against them directly, I also hate winning with them. It’s too easy to get a hit in with it. There’s no satisfaction in winning with feints. A lot of this mindset stems most likely from my dueling bias. When I duel the only thing that matters is direct fundamental skill. Winning isn’t necessary the goal, it’s testing myself and improving. I don’t feel like feints are involved in that process at all. You can’t defend against them, and there’s no skill in executing them, it takes an hour to master… if that. So… what’s the point? Winning to win? There’s no reward to victory unless my skill is increasing.

    The dynamic of feinting shifts in a team format, though it’s far from required to feint in order to be competitive.


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