Weapon balance



  • Hey TBS do you still remember that there some weapons that are horribly broken ? Lets also mention the ones with completely retarded animations. Yes? Then why the fuck dont you change anything about weapon balance? There was no change in months (except for that bearded change which is well just the topping of the iceberg)
    Has any of the devs tried to win a duel against brandi as knight? Your range is much shorter, the lmb riposte of brandi is lightning fast, everytime you block you get moved back so far that he keeps the initiative.
    I really love to play duel mode since im sick of the TO maps but its no fun at all since youre forced to play one of the top 5 op things in order to have a goddamn chance. How can you ignore weapon balance for so long?
    Yes im really mad right now



  • Brandistock LMB is pretty dumb right now.



  • Sounds sucky allright.
    I always use a secondary like Broadsword against Spears and Polearms. Not sure why but it gets me lots of success.



  • @Moon:

    Hey TBS do you still remember that there some weapons that are horribly broken ? Lets also mention the ones with completely retarded animations. Yes? Then why the fuck dont you change anything about weapon balance? There was no change in months (except for that bearded change which is well just the topping of the iceberg)
    Has any of the devs tried to win a duel against brandi as knight? Your range is much shorter, the lmb riposte of brandi is lightning fast, everytime you block you get moved back so far that he keeps the initiative.
    I really love to play duel mode since im sick of the TO maps but its no fun at all since youre forced to play one of the top 5 op things in order to have a goddamn chance. How can you ignore weapon balance for so long?
    Yes im really mad right now

    Yeah, it’s annoying as shit.

    Grand Mace OH is retardedly fast.
    Greatsword OH is retardedly fast.
    Greatsword stab is retardedly draggable.
    MaA dodge still costs a laughable amount of stamina to be called “balanced”.
    Brandi slash still does retarded damage for how fast and long it is.
    Handle hits still make every polearm broken.
    The Messer slash still one shots MaA to the head.

    So much retardedness…



  • @Nohbdy111:

    Grand Mace OH is retardedly fast.
    Greatsword OH is retardedly fast.
    Greatsword stab is retardedly draggable.
    MaA dodge still costs a laughable amount of stamina to be called “balanced”.
    Brandi slash still does retarded damage for how fast and long it is.
    Handle hits still make every polearm broken.
    The Messer slash still one shots MaA to the head.

    Warbow Bodkin still twoshots MaA and Vanguards with leg shots.
    Crossbow reload is still too fast

    Those are the main balance issues not related to the bubble. But for the MaA dodge I would rather see a range reduction than a further stamina cost increase (which would also make it slightly slower as the timing should stay the same).

    Proposal:
    Grandmace OH windup 0.525 > 0.575
    Greatsword OH windup 0.5 > 0.55
    Greatsword slash windup 0.5 > 0.525
    Greatsword stab windup 0.7 > 0.65
    Greatsword stab release 0.45 > 0.4
    Greatsword stab damage 70>65
    Dodge distance reduction by 10% (side dodge) or 20% (back dodge)
    Brandistock slash windup 0.5>0.6
    Brandistock slash recovery 0.65>0.75
    Brandistock slash damage 50>30
    Remove damage tracers for spears and polearms below the “upper” hand
    Messer slash damage 99>90
    Warbow Bodkin damage 116>95
    Light Crossbow reload 2>2.75
    Crossbow reload 3>4
    Heavy Crossbow reload 4>5.25

    Actually the other spear slashes and the Claymore* might also need addressing.

    *Needs a rework to deserve being called Claymore again: Slow it down a bit, buff strike damage.



  • I will not accept the fact that maces like the HWS, morningstar rely soley on their ability to extremely stab spam. Like did you ever play against that setup?

    I don’t give 2 shits wheter its balanced or not. A mace is not for stabbing and it sure as hell isn’t fun to play against.

    Let them 2 shot for all I care but for the love of God fix the damn ANTI FUN weapons in this game.

    Same for the grandmace AKA the mother of all weapons that pretty much force hit trades.

    Polehammer, greatsword retarded overheads.

    Come on play against those weapons and tell me if like them in their current state?

    This is Carcosa.



  • @Evil:

    Proposal:
    Grandmace OH windup 0.525 > 0.575
    Greatsword OH windup 0.5 > 0.55
    Greatsword slash windup 0.5 > 0.525
    Greatsword stab windup 0.7 > 0.65
    Greatsword stab release 0.45 > 0.4
    Greatsword stab damage 70>65
    Dodge distance reduction by 10% (side dodge) or 20% (back dodge)
    Brandistock slash windup 0.5>0.6
    Brandistock slash recovery 0.65>0.75
    Brandistock slash damage 50>30
    Remove damage tracers for spears and polearms below the “upper” hand
    Messer slash damage 99>90
    Warbow Bodkin damage 116>95
    Light Crossbow reload 2>2.75
    Crossbow reload 3>4
    Heavy Crossbow reload 4>5.25

    Actually the other spear slashes and the Claymore* might also need addressing.

    *Needs a rework to deserve being called Claymore again: Slow it down a bit, buff strike damage.

    I like dis.
    Also what Sophax said about mace stabs.



  • @Sophax:

    I will not accept the fact that maces like the HWS, morningstar rely soley on their ability to extremely stab spam. Like did you ever play against that setup?

    I don’t give 2 shits wheter its balanced or not. A mace is not for stabbing and it sure as hell isn’t fun to play against.

    Let them 2 shot for all I care but for the love of God fix the damn ANTI FUN weapons in this game.

    Same for the grandmace AKA the mother of all weapons that pretty much force hit trades.

    Polehammer, greatsword retarded overheads.

    Come on play against those weapons and tell me if like them in their current state?

    This is Carcosa.

    Oh come on man, you’re complaining against pretty much every main class of weapon here.

    1 handed Maces
    2 handed Maces
    2 handed Swords
    Polearms

    And for the record, if you dislike being stabbed by the Morning Star, be a Knight. You can soak those pokes up all day. Nowhere near as powerful a setup as a stabbing Norse Sword user. That’s why I switched to the Morning Star: for more of a challenge.



  • @Mockingbirch:

    Oh come on man, you’re complaining against pretty much every main class of weapon here.

    1 handed Maces
    2 handed Maces
    2 handed Swords
    Polearms

    And for the record, if you dislike being stabbed by the Morning Star, be a Knight. You can soak those pokes up all day. Nowhere near as powerful a setup as a stabbing Norse Sword user. That’s why I switched to the Morning Star: for more of a challenge.

    No you don’t know what you’re talking about.



  • @Sophax:

    No you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Not quite so blunt, but I agree. Mace stabs are silly, HWS being the worst offender.

    Edit: Also it would be nice if the fork wasn’t a one trick pony relying solely on overhead riposte lookdowns.

    Claymore is just stupidly balanced. It should be slowed down, and the damage increased. The game doesn’t handle it properly at its current speeds.



  • A good sword has the point of balance where the hilt joins the blade, or there abouts. Do Chiv’s weapons do this?

    Claymore is just stupidly balanced. It should be slowed down, and the damage increased. The game doesn’t handle it properly at its current speeds.

    Then it would just be the Great Sword.

    If the claymore is to be slowed down, then it’s recovery time should be very quick, to make it a precision strike weapon as opposed to a combo strike weapon like the Great Sword.



  • 4 pokes from a HWS dropping a knight is a little silly…albeit, I haven’t heard of the morningstar stab spam. Thrown out as an opener or for the kill-shot? Yea. As a viable tactic to kill everything? Nope.

    I wish the Longsword didn’t feel like a slower, weaker SoW. I wouldn’t want to wrest the SoW out of its Vanguard-killing duties, but it would benefit greatly being being able to three-shot knights in the torso. I think it’s the perfect balance between the SoW and Messer. Not too slow to do silly drags, but the potential is there. Not lightning fast so you can’t react to a riposte stab, but fast enough to catch someone off-guard. All three attacks (slash, overhead, and stab) are all viable…Before this train of thought continues, I just have a few questions.

    First and foremost. Did anyone else try to bounce numbers around for the Longsword damage and damage types, or am I venturing on new grounds?

    How does the game add up the numbers for the damage values? Is it

    Weapon damage -> resistance value -> round up/down -> body damage modifier = damage value
    ```Or is it
    

    Weapon damage -> resistance value -> body damage modifier -> round up/down = damage value



  • @Evil:

    Warbow Bodkin still twoshots MaA and Vanguards with leg shots.
    Crossbow reload is still too fast

    Those are the main balance issues not related to the bubble. But for the MaA dodge I would rather see a range reduction than a further stamina cost increase (which would also make it slightly slower as the timing should stay the same).

    Proposal:
    Grandmace OH windup 0.525 > 0.575
    Greatsword OH windup 0.5 > 0.55
    Greatsword slash windup 0.5 > 0.525
    Greatsword stab windup 0.7 > 0.65
    Greatsword stab release 0.45 > 0.4
    Greatsword stab damage 70>65

    Fuck yeah.

    Dodge distance reduction by 10% (side dodge) or 20% (back dodge)

    I would agree, but my issue is that this would probably require a lot more testing to see if this would actually do anything than to just increase the stamina cost.

    Brandistock slash windup 0.5>0.6
    Brandistock slash recovery 0.65>0.75
    Brandistock slash damage 50>30

    Wooooooah woah, slow down there. This would make its slash absolutely garbage, just nerf the damage so it isn’t so rewarding to land such an easy(super fast, long) move.

    Remove damage tracers for spears and polearms below the “upper” hand
    Messer slash damage 99>90
    Warbow Bodkin damage 116>95
    Light Crossbow reload 2>2.75
    Crossbow reload 3>4
    Heavy Crossbow reload 4>5.25

    Heeeeeell yeah.

    Actually the other spear slashes and the

    Nah, these are fine because of how weak they are.

    Claymore* might also need addressing.

    *Needs a rework to deserve being called Claymore again: Slow it down a bit, buff strike damage.

    Damn right.



  • @Toll:

    Then it would just be the Great Sword.

    If the claymore is to be slowed down, then it’s recovery time should be very quick, to make it a precision strike weapon as opposed to a combo strike weapon like the Great Sword.

    umm no… the Greatsword needs a nerf buddy. Idk what fantasy you live in where the Greatsword is fine in its current state.

    @Skreshavik:

    How does the game add up the numbers for the damage values? Is it

    Weapon damage -> resistance value -> round up/down -> body damage modifier = damage value
    ```Or is it
    

    Weapon damage -> resistance value -> body damage modifier -> round up/down = damage value

    uhhh, the body damage multiplier is 1.0 so it doesn’t matter. If you meant like headshot/bodyshot/legshot by that then it would be the first one.



  • This post is deleted!


  • It’s the first one? Uhg…but yes, I was focusing on all of the body multipliers.



  • Oh, another one. This game rounds a .5 number up, right? I’d assume so since “0” is still part of the numerical value but I want to make sure.



  • Seems to be damageresistancemodifier and then rounded to the next integer (at least it reproduced the actual damage for the weapons I tested). I used to think it was rounding down because of the Messer slash (2H) - but it turns out it doesn’t have 99 base damage but only 95.



  • Well, I don’t think it matters much with my proposals unless it’s as you noticed and the actual damage value of the weapon is different on the spreadsheet than it is ingame, but even if it is, the numbers still end up the same. I have both sets of numbers for both equations if such is the case. Anyways, constructing tl;dr.



  • @Evil:

    Seems to be damageresistancemodifier and then rounded to the next integer (at least it reproduced the actual damage for the weapons I tested). I used to think it was rounding down because of the Messer slash (2H) - but it turns out it doesn’t have 99 base damage but only 95.

    You are right about that.
    " AttackTypeInfo(0)=(fBaseDamage=95.0, fForce=30000, cDamageType=“AOC.AOCDmgType_Swing”, iWorldHitLenience=6)"

    I’m going to look through old patch notes, and this better be a oversight by us, and not TB when creating those patch notes -.- oh for fuck sake, hang on.

    Here we go!

    “Messer slash windup from .55 to .525 recovery from .9 to .8 and damage from 85 SwingBlunt to 99 Swing”
    Not the first time Torn Banner has claimed false/wrong changes in the patch notes, and I doubt writing exact patch notes isn’t one of the most difficultiest tasks either.

    Well, this 95 Cut makes a difference, it removes the 2HTK on Knights head. But still the Messer is kinda broken, but that Torn Banner can’t make a simple accurate patch note is a bit sad, oh well.


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