Spartans: A rational balance discussion from an experienced player



  • Note: this post is sort of long, but I’ve put it into sections to make it easy to read.

    I’ve played quite a lot of C:MW, and probably even more Deadliest Warrior. 190+ hours on record.
    I really like this game and I want it to be the best it can be. My thoughts on balance are from quite a lot of play time, and my complaints are not newbie whining. I enjoy and play this game enough to know what I’m talking about.

    If people, and maybe even Torn Banner employees, think my input is worthwhile and sparks sane discussion, I’ll talk about other classes in later posts. Again, I really like this game and want it to get better.

    Spartans are without a doubt a class that has balance issues. They win most matches. They are overpowered. Let’s compare to a Pirate, since we can look at ranged and melee.

    -Ranged: The Pirate guns were nerfed after beta complaints. There was also a glitch about them penetrating shields improperly. Fixing the glitch was fair, but now the guns simply do not stack up against other ranged weapons. The Spartan dory kills a pirate in one body hit. It is like a Counter-Strike AWP. It is insane that this class gets a 1-hit-kill weapon.

    The Pirate blunderbuss kills a Spartan in roughly 3-5 hits and takes years to reload. The sheer difference here is incredible. The argument that Spartans only get one dory to throw and is therefore balanced is silly. Not only is a 1-hit-kill (or nearly-1-hit-kill depending on the class) simply unfair in a combat game, but their melee abilities more than make up for it, as will be discussed next.
    (I won’t posit any argument against javelins. We should discuss major issues (dory) before minor ones.)

    -Melee: If the one-hit kill dory doesn’t kill you and instead brings you down to ~15% health, the Spartans have extremely powerful melee combat options. Compare to a Pirate: the Spartan swords have longer reach, swing faster, and do a lot more damage. On top of this, half-naked skirt-wearing Spartans have more health, large shields, and perform extremely swift shield bashes.

    A Spartan can start an attack after a Pirate has started an attack, and hit the Pirate so fast that it cancels the attack. Two sword hits on the Pirate kills him. The Pirate needs to get about 4 or 5 to kill the Spartan.

    -Proposed Solutions:
    1. Simply reduce the damage of the dory. 1-hit-kills (“No Contest” kills) are not acceptable in this game. I came to fight the bastard, not to instantly die, depriving me of even an attempt at combating him. Another option to consider is making a thrown dory blockable (with knockback) as well.

    2. Spartan swords are faster, longer, and do more damage. For this game to be competitive, they can’t have all three of these attributes PLUS shield bashes AND more health. Reduce the damage of the swords. Reduce the speed in which they swing. Yes, I think you need to do both of these things.

    3. Reduce Spartan health. For a class with such powerful attacks, and a massive shield that can block and bash, why do they get so much health? Reduce it so I don’t need to plant 4-6 hits. They only need 1-3 hits on me. Note that if Spartan weapons are balanced, this health reduction likely doesn’t need to be very drastic.

    Note: I am less concerned about their giant shield. Shields should be good and I don’t want to see them nerfed.
    Please let me know what you think and if you’d like to hear my experienced thoughts on other classes (because discussing balance on only 1 class in a 6-class game is an incomplete discussion). :)



  • I agree. It is really hard to take on a group of Spartans. Also, people LOVE stacking Spartans. It is ridiculous how a single dory hit to the body can kill you but a Blunderbuss shot to the head at point blank doesn’t kill you sometimes and the same goes for the pistol. I think pirates had a really good balance since DW was released as early access but of course, the same people who complain about MW archers, complained about pirates. The only class I’ve seen that can take on a group of Spartans fairly easily is the Ninja and only because they can roll and circumvent the Spartan shields. Whenever I mention that Spartans are OP during a match, most players agree and usually the only ones who defend the class are the Spartans themselves.

    It is extremely frustrating when you try to take on a Spartan and he waits for you to get a meter away from him to use his dory and kill you in one hit. No one can miss at that distance, it is a certain kill most of the time…it also doesn’t make sense how they have so much health when they aren’t wearing any armor at all.


  • Global Moderator

    Buff pirate.



  • This post is deleted!


  • I agree, Deadliest Warrior still needs some fixing.



  • I’d think a headshot should kill, but at the very least, don’t let viks be body shot by the dory. That is a bit over the top.

    And I agree with lemon to buff pirate guns. Can we make them do more damage and reload slower?



  • @Ako17:

    Spartans are without a doubt a class that has balance issues. They win most matches. They are overpowered. Let’s compare to a Pirate, since we can look at ranged and melee.

    Stopped reading here. Could no longer value your input. Simply not true unless they have greater numbers.

    From my experience Vikings win way more than Spartans, considering the versatility and speed, knights too if the players are vets as the mechanics are so similar to base MW in the way they handle, but that’s only ‘if’

    EDIT: Also if you’re getting hit by a dory, your just oblivious and can’t read the wind up for the throw to react accordingly. They don’t even go that fast and have terrible drop off… Do you people use the class or just whine about? (serious question)

    @airborne101st45:

    it also doesn’t make sense how they have so much health when they aren’t wearing any armor at all.

    Nvm that answered my question… Giant shield, greaves, curass and helmet = no armor apparently

    Man you guys should have been around when the shield was considered the main weapon by most and the bash had almost double the swing speed… That was a valid criticism…



  • @PissedOffConsumer:

    Stopped reading here. Could no longer value your input. Simply not true unless they have greater numbers.

    From my experience Vikings win way more than Spartans, considering the versatility and speed, knights too if the players are vets as the mechanics are so similar to base MW in the way they handle, but that’s only ‘if’

    EDIT: Also if you’re getting hit by a dory, your just oblivious and can’t read the wind up for the throw to react accordingly. They don’t even go that fast and have terrible drop off… Do you people use the class or just whine about? (serious question)

    Nvm that answered my question… Giant shield, greaves, curass and helmet = no armor apparently

    Man you guys should have been around when the shield was considered the main weapon by most and the bash had almost double the swing speed… That was a valid criticism…

    We both have been playing since DW was available to the public…we remember the OP shield bash perfectly. Why can’t you post a nice and constructive comment without being rude?



  • @airborne101st45:

    I agree. It is really hard to take on a group of Spartans. Also, people LOVE stacking Spartans. It is ridiculous how a single dory hit to the body can kill you but a Blunderbuss shot to the head at point blank doesn’t kill you sometimes and the same goes for the pistol. I think pirates had a really good balance since DW was released as early access but of course, the same people who complain about MW archers, complained about pirates. The only class I’ve seen that can take on a group of Spartans fairly easily is the Ninja and only because they can roll and circumvent the Spartan shields. Whenever I mention that Spartans are OP during a match, most players agree and usually the only ones who defend the class are the Spartans themselves.

    It is extremely frustrating when you try to take on a Spartan and he waits for you to get a meter away from him to use his dory and kill you in one hit. No one can miss at that distance, it is a certain kill most of the time…it also doesn’t make sense how they have so much health when they aren’t wearing any armor at all.

    You’re right, Pirates actually used to be relatively balanced, but they’ve been underpowered for some time now, especially their ranged weapons. A Spartan who quickly brings up his dory and just holds it there waiting for the perfect moment to 1-hit-kill you is extremely frustrating.

    No matter how much a Pirate can try to dance and avoid it, he can always wait for the Pirate to get close to drastically increase his dory hit odds and there is very little you can do about it. You have no shield, your sword is too short to sneak a quick stab in, you sure as hell can’t reload, and even if your gun is loaded it’s going to take at LEAST 3 shots to kill him. He kills you in one.

    @lemonater47:

    Buff pirate.

    Agreed.

    @Dr.Medic:

    I agree, Deadliest Warrior still needs some fixing.

    It does. I’d love to see this game have competitive value with balance fixes. Compliment that with new maps and maybe Team Objective, and I think this game could be a hit.

    @dragonmith:

    I’d think a headshot should kill, but at the very least, don’t let viks be body shot by the dory. That is a bit over the top.

    And I agree with lemon to buff pirate guns. Can we make them do more damage and reload slower?

    I can agree with a dory headshot remaining a 1-hit-kill. But it should not 1-hit-kill in a body shot. Not against Pirates or Vikings or any class.

    And yeah, Pirate guns need a boost. I would settle for a bit (more than a bit?) more damage and/or a modestly tighter projectile spread to add range and the ability to use it a bit more accurately. The reload already takes forever and makes you walk slowly, so I don’t think we need to extend it.



  • I agree with the spartans having too much health. In ffa just try to avoid them because it takes too long time killing them. They can hide behind their shield and when you manage to get around them you’ll still have to hit them a couple of times before they die. Also, Yesterday I played on a ffa server with over half of the players using spartan. It was impossible to do anything as a class without a shield.


  • Global Moderator

    @airborne101st45:

    We both have been playing since DW was available to the public…we remember the OP shield bash perfectly. Why can’t you post a nice and constructive comment without being rude?

    You thought the shield bash was OP when it was released to the public in September? You should of seen it in June.



  • Just make those throwing spears blockable. Why do they get the only ranged throwing weapon that can’t be blocked? Spartans shouldn’t be a ranged powerhouse class…


  • Global Moderator

    @wyrda78:

    Just make those throwing spears blockable. Why do they get the only ranged throwing weapon that can’t be blocked? Spartans shouldn’t be a ranged powerhouse class…

    When they were blockable they were far too easy to block.



  • And of course the devs haven’t released a new patch in months.



  • @lemonater47:

    You thought the shield bash was OP when it was released to the public in September? You should of seen it in June.

    I did…I’ve been playing since early release.



  • I feel like the compaints against spartans are slightly exadurated. While being “OP” i would say they are hard to use. and infexable. and their swords really are not all that. i can see a slight damage redux on the swords but reallly i think they are okay. But yea. pirates need a buff desperately . and i will agree to the damage redux on the dory. but ehh i still think they are easy enough to doge in most cases…. unless your a pirate of course

    And please dont accuse me of defending my “favorite” class… because really its my worst class aside from pirate


  • Global Moderator

    @airborne101st45:

    I did…I’ve been playing since early release.

    June was not early release. Early release was the beta in September. Alpha was the 30 people picked to play alpha.



  • Comparison to pirate isn’t very fair, since everything about pirate was nerfed into the ground due to a mix of some valid but mostly invalid complaints.

    Anyway, I identified Spartans as a cut above the other classes some time before release but focus was mainly on the main outliers at the time which were the much maligned pirates and the rather useless Vikings, who were respectively nerfed and buffed with their core design problems remaining intact. Spartans would be much easier to tweak down because their design is solid. Pirates will always be controversial because of guns, Vikings are hard to really address because there are still several large inconsistencies with the berserk and dual wield mechanics.



  • Spartan’s 1 hit dory throw to the body is pretty crap. Even if they hit you in the toe it’s most of your life. Dory to the toe plus super hard to block shield bash = dead. I’ve said shield bash was crap since beta. They just need to give them the other 2 sword swing directions and get rid of it. Makes no sense anyways. Pirate being buffed…please no. They are so powerful if they work as a team, or with their team. Pirates are an amazing support troop, they don’t need any buffs. (I do like pirates, I don’t like getting killed across the map).


  • Global Moderator

    @Helrin2:

    Spartan’s 1 hit dory throw to the body is pretty crap. Even if they hit you in the toe it’s most of your life. Dory to the toe plus super hard to block shield bash = dead. I’ve said shield bash was crap since beta. They just need to give them the other 2 sword swing directions and get rid of it. Makes no sense anyways. Pirate being buffed…please no. They are so powerful if they work as a team, or with their team. Pirates are an amazing support troop, they don’t need any buffs. (I do like pirates, I don’t like getting killed across the map).

    Pirates aren’t even powerful in a team. As samurai you can group charge a team of pirates across open ground and win.