Knights' unique 1handers need a buff



  • Hi, there are a couple of threads around about the Warhammer and 1Handed Bastard swords needing a buff. Whilst there’s no consensus (is there ever in this game?) I just wanted to make a comment on why I think these needs some consideration beyond simple damage numbers.

    In the wider game balance Knights went from being slightly OP to generally UP after the big patch. A lot of this was due to the Longsword/SoW nerfs, but also other weapon nerfs, changes to footspeed, removal of CftP, sprint lockout, shield nerfs, bubble introduction and generally other classes getting buffs. Vanguards seem to have got the most out of it whilst MaA actually got nerfed a bit as well but still seem to be fairly powerful and at least equal to knights.

    Some of these changes have been thankfully fixed but I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Knights are OP, I would assume most people think they are if anything slightly UP.

    One thing I think needs some love is the unique Knight’s one handed weapons: Warhammer and 1H Bastard swords. Beyond simple balancing I think it’s about giving those weapons something that makes them different from the other single handed weapons shared with MaA. This would give the Knight a bit of a buff which is probably needed but also give the knight and these weapons some much needed flavour.

    The Knight has certain primaries that are on par or lesser to the other single handed weapons that are his secondaries and MaA primaries. Mace/HWS/MS is probably a better choice than Warhammer, or is at least equal. IH Longsword is pretty much the same as broadsword and SoW is just worse. That makes these weapons uninteresting and boring. Giving them some sort of buff or powerful niche does two things: buffs the Knight a little in comparison to MaA and gives the game more flavour.

    tl;dr: buff unique Knight weapons to give the class and game more flavour



  • I don’t know. I think buffing the weapons would be the wrong way to go about buffing knights. I remember a few weeks ago there was a long thread about how to buff knights. Most people agreed on an idea with which a knight could activate a special ability (like the other classes have) that would immobilize the knight and leave him defenseless. But give the knight a health and stamina regeneration boost. Or something similar.

    I don’t think the one handed LS needs a buff. It’s supposed to be weaker than its two-handed counterpart. The shield is supposed to be what makes up for that. The one-handed SoW definitely needs a buff though.

    The Warhammer needs some kind of buff, because currently it’s trash-tier. I wouldn’t know how to buff it exactly. I don’t think damage is the right way to go, because the Warhammer is supposed to fill the role of a faster, weaker blunt weapon. With the Gmace and Maul taking the heavier route. Perhaps an increase in range, maybe faster combo-times, I don’t know.



  • Buff their arrow resistance to the legs and increase their stam pool in some way whether its increasing the amount, regen, or giving some kind of special ability. Buffing the weapons in general is the wrong way to do it.



  • Take away the Holy Water Sprinkler and replace it with Warhammer, make Warhammer a secondary rather than a primary weapon, thus it would make Holy Water Sprinkler special for Man-at arms in the act aswell :D



  • Give their 1 handed bastard super quick recovery time, like halve it or something. At least for the SoW, that would be pretty different. I haven’t given it much thought at all as to what exactly that brings to the table, but it would certainly be different.



  • knight definitely needs something to make 1handing bastards useful or unique a 1handed LS right now is just a slower slightly longer broadsword so give the maa a broadsword and a heater shield and you’ve got a faster moving dodging mini knight



  • 2 primary weapons would be so cool (1 axe/hammer plus 1 sword)



  • I would rather wait for the bubble changes to take effect because they could help the Warhammer and Flails (and all other short onehanded weapons) a lot.

    The onehanded Longsword actually seems allright and is probably more underused than underpowered - the Broadsword being hyped and overrated might have something to do with this. The trade reach vs. speed seems okay to me at least in Knight vs. Knight - MaA got dodge to reduce any reach advantage* though. But its not fair to compare the Knight with a onehanded Longsword and a MaA with a Broadsword including dodge. Knight Broadsword vs Knight 1H Longsword works fine in my opinion: Its power (DPS) versus utility (reach/dragging).

    The onehanded SoW on the other side is basically a weaker version of the onehanded Longsword as the stab that is supposed to be its advantage doesn’t translate into one (same HTK) and its only barely faster with its strikes (0.05s shorter release) while losing both damage and reach here.

    *One reason why the (back) dodge distance should be shorter. I think the Broadsword is only an issue because of the bubble and this long dodge distance.



  • knight is poop anyway, all the main carrys in EU competitive scene play vanguard maa or archer

    knight has zero carry potential, weak class



  • Both the 1h bastard swords are highly underrated. Both kits are pretty powerful, but facilitate a different sort of playstyle than most people employ/enjoy. When you use either, you are playing a defensive role, not offensive. Instead of getting kills, your job is to block for your teammates, stay alive, get assists and generally be annoying. Overall, I think they are very well balanced in terms of usefulness.

    The 1h bastard sword stabs are very, very strong. You can’t really dance and combo around the battlefield when using 1h bastard swords, it is more of a reactive, single-strike kind of playstyle as your opponents are almost always forced to make the first move.

    I actually don’t know if 1h SoW needs any buffs, not that I’d say no. I’ve been trying it out of late, and it seems to have a different sort of niche than the 1h LS. It has a stronger stab, and though I can’t remember the exact values, I believe slightly faster combos (or at least, that’s how it seems in game).

    tl;dr: It isn’t just their stats, you have to consider the shield. The shield provides a very strong advantage.



  • The bubble reduction will help every class and every single handed weapon, so it won’t suddenly buff the warhammer and if anything will make the 1Handed bastard swords even more useless because that bit of extra range is what they currently have going for them.

    The problem is that the Knight has the majority of useless unique primaries; flail, warhammer, double axe, 1H bastards. Compare that to the Vanguard’s primaries that are just better in every regard across the board. Buffing these weapons gives Knights a niche that the sadly lack right now.



  • Double Axe isn’t useless, it is the most manly weapon in the game! Leave it as it is!



  • Game has been unbalanced since the june patch. I remember saying all they needed to do was fix the bugs. I still think thats all they ever needed to do. Vanguard is super OP, basically a knight on cocaine. Too much knockback on VG weps, knight being too slow, brandistock (all spears really), and greatsword all = useless knight



  • @Evil:

    I would rather wait for the bubble changes to take effect because they could help the Warhammer and Flails (and all other short onehanded weapons) a lot.

    The onehanded Longsword actually seems allright and is probably more underused than underpowered - the Broadsword being hyped and overrated might have something to do with this. The trade reach vs. speed seems okay to me at least in Knight vs. Knight - MaA got dodge to reduce any reach advantage* though. But its not fair to compare the Knight with a onehanded Longsword and a MaA with a Broadsword including dodge. Knight Broadsword vs Knight 1H Longsword works fine in my opinion: Its power (DPS) versus utility (reach/dragging).

    The onehanded SoW on the other side is basically a weaker version of the onehanded Longsword as the stab that is supposed to be its advantage doesn’t translate into one (same HTK) and its only barely faster with its strikes (0.05s shorter release) while losing both damage and reach here.

    *One reason why the (back) dodge distance should be shorter. I think the Broadsword is only an issue because of the bubble and this long dodge distance.

    +1

    For some reason the bubble is now pushing players away more than before, and one handers have very little range now…



  • I’d like to see the warhammer become an all purpose weapon, instead of just another anti-knight weapon, like half the knight arsenal. I’d some combination of speed and length buffed (speed, length, or a little of both), and for it to have an actual stab, and give it a model like this.

    It’s currently one of the worst weapons in the game, and instead of just being another niche weapon i’d like it to be all purpose. Knight has way too many weapons that are only good against other knights. Double axe, g mace, heavy flail and maul are all anti-knight, and most of the rest of the knight arsenal is just bad. I think the vanguard arsenal is good evidence that 2h swords aren’t always the “go-to” weapons, like they always were with knights. Gr8sword might be the best van weapon, but there’s still plenty of reason to choose spear, brandi, halberd, billhook and polehammer over it. I’d like to see warhammer and bearded axe as well to be totally revamped into non-niche roles.



  • You mean you want the warhammer model to look exactly like the Polehammer with half the shaft cut off?

    Faster attacks preferably in windup and combo times, faster but weaker stab, bubble reduction and the weapon would be a lot better.

    Personally I think the dub axe is the worst weapon. Not to say the war hammer is that good.

    The knights is an anti knight or heavy support class. All its anti knight weapons are great when fighting with team mates. They do the flinching and you do the killing.

    Greatsword is the most flexible weapon in the game. No weaknesses. Most swords are multi purpose. Problem is the greatsword has a hell of a lot of strengths too. Its balanced and by that I mean its own stats are balanced to itself. Little OP. Not by much though. I was thinking the recovery times for it to be increased slightly. To punish missed swings a tad. Then again its supposed to be a new player friendly weapon. Slower combo times?



  • It wouldn’t look like a “Polehammer with half the shaft cut off…” anymore than a broadsword looks like a miniature greatsword. A polehammer was essentially a warhammer on a longer shaft so yeah…

    In any case the main point is that without a decent stab the weapon is just sub-par compared to the mace. The mace has similar blunt damage with the benefit of a very fast (but weak) stab, which makes it a lot more viable. It just means you have a weapon that can be both slow and heavy damaing or fast and weak depending on your situation whereas warhammer has very little except ‘smash knights good’. A decent stab would allow the warhammer a chance against vans and just make the entire weapon more interesting.

    The example about Van swords is valid. Swords are great because they are so versatile and range is probably one of the most important aspects of any weapon. The warhammer lacks range and lacks versatility.



  • Well, i’d like it to have a stab, and that model has a point on the end. Weapons that have actual stabs have points on the end, and weapons without real stabs don’t. Example: bearded has no stab, and has no point, while poleaxe has a stab and a point, even though they’re both 2h axes. Same applies to bardiche and the rest of the polearms. That’s the only important thing with the model.

    Dunno about your suggestions for warhammer buffs. Only speeding it up then making it a flinch machine with a faster but weaker stab? Might as well use one of the maces with the kite. They fulfill the “pure tank” aspect you want warhammer to have just fine. Warhammer is a primary. It shouldn’t be balanced with 1h knight weapons, it should be better than them. When you choose warhammer you’re saying “I want to do the same shit I can do with any of the 1h maces+kite but be slower and sacrifice a primary weapon for a secondary.” Giving the warhammer a stab might seperate it a tad from the other hammers, just like it sort of does for the poleaxe in the 2h axe tree. But even giving it a stab, there will still be problems. It’s still going to feel support-ish since it’s hard to do anything other than prolong fights in 1vN’s with no riposte and no 2h reach. It’s clear tbs didn’t really know what to do with the heavy blunts since they made a 1h primary and invented the “grand mace.”

    I can’t say I agree with your gr8sword balance changes either. They kind of push it too far into the zweihander direction imo. I’d rather they bump the windup a tad higher, drop the release time on the stab (imo if done right the hardest drag to parry in the game, and the release makes it easier to execute) and make it slightly shorter.



  • What’s the deal with everyone wanting to buff the Warhammer? Am I the only one who thinks this is a great weapon that’s entirely underrated and unused?

    I’d honestly pick the Warhammer over any other 1H blunt weapon in the Knights arsenal right now. Been playing with it for the last few days or so and I don’t know what everyone’s trip is with this weapon… because it’s powerful if you can play with it.

    -2 HTK any class
    -Better DPS than all other 1H Knight blunts (HTK isn’t determining. You’re doing more damage)
    -An entire toolbox when selecting Norse/Broad as secondary (multiple strengths and setups)
    -Shield makes you a great “rook” on the battlefield. A placeholder / time waster
    -Probably the least invasive blunt support weapon you can play as a Knight, making it easier to play with team mates

    I will admit the playstyle is kind of funky, because it’s a reversed niche playstyle. (Your primary is played like a secondary and your secondary is covering the gaps of the primary.) You’re essentially playing with two secondary weapons where one, based on damage, acts like a primary.

    An odd playstyle, but still very effective and no where near useless or inferior to other similar weapons in the arsenal.



  • I think the warhammer does good damage, it just need a slight increase in range as the bubble interferes at times when collide & push away
    LS I think needs a slight buff in damage to slash & OH, SOW I think is ok


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