We need to change this. Now.



  • I have noticed that the weapon balance is pretty strange. There seems to be a huge difference between the viability of weapons. And this is a prime example:

    Grandmace:

    -Statistics-
    Stamina drain
    Extremely fast handle hits useful for fighting vanguards, knights, archers, AND maa by catching them in their footwork
    Extremely slow delay drags useful for high power surprise attack against any class
    Decent and deceptive range, not noticeable disadvantageous when compared to the longsword
    Great damage, two shot kill to all classes
    * NOTICE ALL CLASSES

    -Experience-
    When using the grandmace, the handle hits can interrupt almost every other weapon in the game, and in combination with extremely high damage, it is pretty much unstoppable. Not to mention the stamina drain, which causes the opponent to work more quickly and not trade parries as often. In competitive play, you will have no problem min maxing with another player. Needs a speed/handle hit nerf. Increase windup time?

    Compare this to the longsword.

    Longsword:

    -Statistics-
    Weak damage, 4 shot kill to knight unless headshots
    Decent range
    Decent drag ability
    Speed is not as good in comparison to other weapons, can be outtraded fairly easily
    Limited stamina advantage against other weapons

    -Experience-
    The longsword is a weak weapon, and in comparison to other weapons, it fails. Other similar weapons like the sword of war has more damage and speed potential with the ability to 3 shot knights, while the longsword has to 4 shot them and suffer from slower swings. The drags on the longsword are decent, but in competitive play, drags are simply less practical than feints. Having to get 4 hits in on other knights during comp play is really impractical, and min maxing will not work unless the other player uses a heavy weapon. This weapon has some potential, but in comparison to others it is impractical to use. Needs a damage buff.

    As you can see, there is quite a gap between the longsword and the grand mace both statistically and gameplay-wise. This is not the only example of huge gaps between weapon viability. Something should really be done to help level the playing ground. I would like to see more variety in competitive play.

    EDIT: To be clear, I do not want ONLY the LS and Gmace to be buffed/nerfed. I would like a total revision of all of the weapons. This was just one example of the issues of balance.



  • Grand Mace windup is pretty much the same as Longsword too, only difference is the slash (Gmace is 0.025 slower).



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  • The Grand Mace has needed a significant windup nerf for a long ass time, the Longsword is fine.



  • @Kim:

    Grand Mace windup is pretty much the same as Longsword too, only difference is the slash (Gmace is 0.025 slower).

    Although the windup is the same, in reality, the grand mace’s overhead animations are not as easy to read as the longsword’s, so the attack looks instant and invisible. Maybe they need to revise the animation rather than the speed. Pure statistics isn’t the only thing you can account for. And you know all too well that it needs some tweaking.



  • @JimmyTryhard:

    Although the windup is the same, in reality, the grand mace’s overhead animations are not as easy to read as the longsword’s, so the attack looks instant and invisible. Maybe they need to revise the animation rather than the speed. Pure statistics isn’t the only thing you can account for. And you know all too well that it needs some tweaking.

    No, stop beating around the bush. It’s complete fact and obvious that a weapon that two shots everything with body hits and has the same reach as a different weapon that has half the damage should not have the same windup as that weapon. Don’t be silly.

    (however handle hits do need to be addressed)



  • Longsword actually works quite fine against Knights - it might not have the damage of other weapons but it offers a very good combination of dragability, reach, versatility and speed (even though its below average). Giving it the ability to threeshot Knights would probably be too much. But in the grand scheme it might need some improvements against Vanguards to compete with the Sword of War: Buffing both overhead and stab damage by 1 keeps the HTK against Knights but makes both attacks twoshot Vanguards with torso hits - which keeps the versatility and weakness against Knights theme while also retaining the Sword of Wars role as faster choice with a more powerful stab.

    The Grandmace is affected by handle hits that need adressing but its windup is also pretty fast. However the other timings are not so I suggest a small windup nerf - maybe at or slightly above the Messers values. Handle hits are higher priority here as the affect other weapons as well.

    But in general I think melee balance (save for the handle hit issue) is not the highest priority right now. Right now its more important to bring Archers in line and the bubble might need some further reduction (in fact a complete removal would be best i group fights). And in fact both the Pavise and projectiles await a fix since release.

    In the end balance should be done in little steps (otherwise “the patch” happens) so it might be okay to include some smaller changes in upcoming patches.



  • Longsword is a worthless piece of shit atm. No reason whatsoever to use it. Ls needs a buff, g mace doesn’t really need a nerf. It does one thing good: smash knights. I don’t know where people get this stupid idea that buffing ls to 3 shot knights and 2 shot vans is gonna make it op. It was never op before. Lots of good players played knight, and longsword was one of the few balanced choices knight had.



  • i miss old longsword, it’s still viable but you have to hit head all the time for it to be viable. Sounds easy enough but people don’t typically hold still when you’re attacking them. Plenty of the most used weapons that vanguard possess can 2 shot knights, idk why the longsword was nerfed this way. The gmace is definitely a good weapon, idk if i’d consider it OP though. The gmace is particularly good in duels, but can be severely overcome in team fights, you don’t see that many people using it in competitive play, not that it couldn’t. The poleaxe is a great option as a gmace counter, as well as many vanguard weapons and speedy weapons that other classes have. The handle hits are there, but the handle hits exist with all the weapons and IMO instead of just focusing on the gmace handle hits, you try and fix all of them to some degree, because they’re all kind of stupid.



  • Statistically, gmace is incredibly OP. The handle hits, as clay mentioned, are not likely going to be solved unless they are fixed across the board. That being said, the gmace does need balancing. The OH windup in particular should not be as fast as the LS given its greatly increased damage and basically comparable range.

    I think nerfing some of the more popular, and broken choices in the vanguard arsenal will make LS look a lot better. The problem at the moment is that Vanguards are overwhelmingly better in melee (faster movement speed, longer range, comparable weapon speeds) and they now have weapons with similar HTK values.

    The LS is a decent weapon at the moment. It can do a little bit of everything, OH and stab drags, intentional misses, decent feints, etc.



  • Pretty sure the norse and broad have ~4htk on knight too. Makes the LS seem a bit underwhelming now doesn’t it.



  • @LTTLWLF:

    Pretty sure the norse and broad have ~4htk on knight too. Makes the LS seem a bit underwhelming now doesn’t it.

    HWS stab is ~4htk on knights too, pretty lame.



  • Longsword is op enough, doesnt need buffs.



  • @LTTLWLF:

    Pretty sure the norse and broad have ~4htk on knight too. Makes the LS seem a bit underwhelming now doesn’t it.

    Longsword kills Knights with:

    • 4 leg cutting overheads
    • 4 torso hits
    • 3 torso overheads and a quick kick
    • 2 torso hits (one overhead) and one slash/stab to the head
    • 2 torso hits and an overhead to the head
      Broadsword:
    • 2 leg and two torso overheads/stabs
    • 4 torso hits if at least one is not a slash
    • 3 torso hits and a head hit
    • 2 overheads to the head, 1 overhead/stab to the torso and a quick kick
    • 3 overheads/stabs all to the head
    • 2 overheads and one slash all to the head
      Thats a pretty significant difference if you don’t go full tunnel vision on torso overheads
      @Kim:

    HWS stab is ~4htk on knights too, pretty lame.

    How is this lame? Its a blunt weapon and deals much less damage against other classes. Yes its faster - but its also much shorter. And it lacks in versatility.



  • Long sword used to be cool, it was the reason I played knight. Because it never used to suck. That was before Torn Banner made vanguard the ezy mode master race and said “Fuck knights, nerf their balanced sword and they can only have powerful novelty clubs”

    It’s a piece of shit.



  • Keep grandmace the same.

    Buff SoW and LS damage.

    Problem solved.

    Grandmace is already a garbage weapon outside of Knight duels



  • why sow need buff, it’s stab (sewing) machine



  • Been trying the SoW out now, I have to say especially in team modes it’s leagues beyond the LS. The number of kills I’m able to attain has gone up significantly. LS is a handicap in team modes, no doubt. In duels I’d say the SoW is still better, though not by such a large margin.



  • I’d point out though that SoW is very one dimensional for duels. Very, very one dimensional. LS has far more options available to the user.

    And the fact that sow can 3 stab knights looks nice on paper but is basically useless given that you ofc cant combo three stabs, and as such those three stabs takes a long time, and certainly will not work on good players without heavy reliance on feints.

    SoW is much better for teammodes though, that vanguard wrecking comes in handy. Ofc opinion but its just my piece.

    GM is absolutely fine, and LS n SoW need buffs to bring them inline with the GM, an effective yet balanced weapon that cannot be described as easymode to use in any way.



  • Buff longsword, leave grand mace as it is. Knights don’t need any nerf at all.


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