Vanguards are OP (compared to knights)



  • (Edit: My bad, meant to post this in Balance and Game Mechanics.)

    Here are the reasons why:

    • Knocking back knights in full plate armor 20 feet.

    • Faster and longer reaching weapons than the knight, while doing almost the same damage.

    • Has a much easier time killing lighter classes than the knight, yet the knight has a hard time killing the vanguard.

    • The greatsword is a straight upgrade from the longsword, only slower by very very small margins, yet does more damage across the board, reaches farther, and has shorter combo speeds.

    • You can say knights have shields and that makes them useful, but it doesn’t matter because shields are horrible

    • They have the Vanguard charge, while knight has….slightly more health? Yet he is much, much slower, and takes lots of damage from arrows, gets a giant maul swing flinched by a tiny throwing knife, and still gets knocked back a half mile by vanguard attacks (seriously who’s idea was it to give the longest weapons in the game the most knockback?)

    • It’s almost impossible to catch up to vanguards using the chase mechanic as a knight, as well as all the other classes in the game (same run speed as a man at arms, can you believe that?) so either they are too fast or the chase mechanic needs a serious look at.

    • You can say “Of course the knight is slow, look at all the armor he is wearing” Yet it barely even protects him? So why take that trade-off?

    • Brandistock. nuff said.

    • As it is, It’s very hard to stamina drain a vanguard as he is simply too fast for the knight to catch up, combined with the insane knockback his weapons have, good luck trying to catch up to a vanguard that really wants you to not get close to him. Meanwhile, from all that chasing, knight is almost out of stamina, and vanguard has his bar completely full. Absolutely broken.

    • They, in part with the man at arms, turn the competitive metagame into firepot and brandistock spam. Often times the MVP’s of a competitive match will be brandistock or greatsword users, and for good reason too.

    I’m all out. I thought of as many reasons as i could think of. Feel free to share why you also think vanguards are op, in need of a nerf in certain areas, or why i’m wrong.

    Thanks.



  • The main concern about Vanguards are their weaponry, never really the class itself. The charge, apart from the retarded 190 degrees swing with swords, is quite balanced if you ask me.

    A good buff for the knight would simply be reduced knockback. Any experienced polearm user can easily force distance from his opponent and constantly deliver huge knockback to keep the knight away. It’s just god-awful how it is. Knight+Whatever weapon VS Vanguard+Polearm is just a terrible match-up as it is now.



  • Vanguards are supposed to be the high-damage killing machines while the knights are support and tank most of the damage. Yes, the vanguard does have over-all better weapons than the knight. That’s kind of the idea. But vanguards can’t do anything without a knight backing them up. The vanguards are two-shot by a lot of weapons in the game and they need a strong base to attack from, ie. the knight. In comp play most clans always make sure to at least run one knight. Vanguards get wiped up and zoned too quickly without a knight protecting them.

    Knights also take more time to kill. Because of their health, it can take up to 3 extra hits on some weapons to kill a knight compared to a vanguard. This means it takes longer to wipe them and get to the objective. The only weapons in the game that can two-shot knights are the following. Maul, Gmace, Poleaxe, Zweihander, Bardiche and Polehammer. Three of those weapons belong to the vanguard while the other three belong to the knight. However, the Zweihander and Bardiche both need two overhead-headshots to two-hit kill which is very rare and very difficult to pull off. The polehammer can reliably two-shot knights, but the polehammer is also much weaker against all the other classes because of its slow speed and short range.

    Also knights have the SoW which is the best vanguard counter in the game. It’s also great against all the other classes with the exception of another knight, which balances it out.

    I hate the SoW.



  • OP describes the vanguard’s positives while shamefully downplaying or ignoring the knights positives. The best competitive teams run heavy knights because archers. At least 2 knights is almost always necessary while it’s very easy to get away with having just one vanguard. Knights are just the backbone of a team.

    Of course knights could use a small buff but vanguards are absolutely nowhere near OP save for the greatsword whose overhead windup should probably be slowed down to .525.



  • Vanguards have killing power, knights have staying power. Vanguards are supposed to be better at killing than knights. I don’t see the problem here.



  • @Psyfon:

    • They have the Vanguard charge, while knight has….slightly more health?

    • It’s almost impossible to catch up to vanguards using the chase mechanic as a knight, as well as all the other classes in the game (same run speed as a man at arms, can you believe that?) so either they are too fast or the chase mechanic needs a serious look at.

    Alright first of all you are only saying half of the knights special ability, the main aspect of they knight is that they do not use stamina as much when making stamina related actions. Complaining about an ability with an omission like that is like if I complained about the vangaurd charge by stating its sucked because all it is a more powerful LMB attack.

    To adress the second point, this is not exclusive with the Knight/Vanguard comparison. Vanguards also have trouble catching up to the maa/archer. It is the point of the game that heavier classes will be slower than the lighter classes.



  • Some of the vanguards weapons are in dire need of tweaking, and the class needs an overall blanket knockback decrease. Small adjustments, however: im not advocating an enormous nerf. But it is essential either way

    GS needs OH slowing down so you cant just look at the floor and spam scroll down to interrupt/hit trade almost anything as a trump card. Id say its stab needs some form of nerf too, its just weird and unpredictible, but does a shit tonne of damage.

    Polehammer needs a damage nerf (should still two shot knights, but should NOT basically reduce them to nothing in one shot) big time, and handlehits always needed addressing anyway: especially for this.

    Brandi still needs more slowing down on its slash.

    –-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not huge changes, but i’d argue that each and every one is essential.



  • I think the most useful thing that could be said to the OP is a solution to the first problem he listed:
    When fighting a VG keep running at him; even when you are parrying you must keep holding down ‘run forward’. In doing this you greatly reduce how much you get knocked back!
    This changes everything.
    The VG is a threat with his extended range but any class, even an archer with a dagger, can get in close too easily (IMO) by just sprinting at him the whole time.



  • @giantyak:

    The VG is a threat with his extended range but any class, even an archer with a dagger, can get in close too easily (IMO) by just sprinting at him the whole time.

    Yes, pls run at vanguards, so they can insta-handlehit or decel-drag you more easily. Imo Vanguard is much more dangerous from up close.



  • @Flippy:

    The only weapons in the game that can two-shot knights are the following. Maul, Gmace, Poleaxe, Zweihander, Bardiche and Polehammer. Three of those weapons belong to the vanguard while the other three belong to the knight. However, the Zweihander and Bardiche both need two overhead-headshots to two-hit kill which is very rare and very difficult to pull off.

    Uhh messer, halberd, brandi warhammer, flanged mace…I think that’s it. Zwei also only needs 1 head hit too lol.



  • @swagfox:

    Uhh messer, halberd, brandi warhammer, flanged mace…I think that’s it. Zwei also only needs 1 head hit too lol.

    and the dubaxe, bearded axe, jav, heavy jav, cudgel, and heavy flail. Cmon Flippy ya frickin casual.



  • @Silu:

    Yes, pls run at vanguards, so they can insta-handlehit or decel-drag you more easily. Imo Vanguard is much more dangerous from up close.

    Well…
    As an archer with a dagger in terms of melee there’s no other way… You most often end up behind the VG anyway…which is still most times just as dangerous as being in front of him ::O



  • @Karasu:

    and the dubaxe, bearded axe, jav, heavy jav, cudgel, and heavy flail. Cmon Flippy ya frickin casual.

    Holy shit how did I forget dub axe lol -_-



  • @swagfox:

    Holy shit how did I forget dub axe lol -_-

    And how the fuck does cudgel 2 shot knights with lmb’s? TBS PLS



  • Asif you wouldn’t sprint into a vanguard attack if you have only small weapons, ie dagger. Then you use your weapons speed to flinch the shit out of the vanguard so you don’t have to worry about handle hits and whatnot. You got to control those fights.

    Don’t discount the knights extra health, many an objective has been taken from stabbing through your knight buddy into the enemy. The knight lives, and enemy dies and objective complete, or closer too. Other classes you risk killing them too often by doing that sneaky tactic.

    In pub play going Knights can make a big difference if you have a TK happy team.

    I think the Knight just needs to regen health quicker, so his 1v1 ability isn’t really changed, yet his team ability is increased, making him a strong tank for each clash, regening between clashes.



  • @Toll:

    I think the Knight just needs to regen health quicker, so his 1v1 ability isn’t really changed, yet his team ability is increased, making him a strong tank for each clash, regening between clashes.

    This is actually a good idea.



  • They should reduce the knockback on knights. Come on, how can you knock back a full-armoured knight 20 feets away with a stick (brandistock).



  • Feinting vanguards are probably the most OP thing ingame at the moment IMO. And now they’re natural counter, archers, have been limited by artificial restrictions everyone is playing as one.

    Brand needs to be nerfed, I’m sick of its overpowered swing that does an unreasonable amount of damage.



  • I would support knights getting more stamina.



  • Knights need that kneel feature already which would let them regen like 2x faster than other classes, while leaving themselves vulnerable to archers of course. It’d be a great buff and a neat feature that also fits well into their supposed tank role.


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