A suggestion on feints! :D



  • disagree with this, if you increase the cost of feints then feint to parry will cost an extraordinary amount, and you have to ftp and cftp constantly now especially in group fights because if you kill someone and someone else is coming in to swing then you have to cftp. You’d get stun locked constantly if feints cost any more than they already do. Even 1 feint right now can cost you the fight so there’s no real reason to increase the stamina cost of them.

    if anything i’d REDUCE the cost of parrying and leave feints the way they are.



  • @Karasu:

    Same for rock paper scissors actually. It’s a lot of mind games. Just like feints.

    There is SOME luck in poker, especially if you just want to get a lucky cash out and quit. Simply the shuffling of the deck is the external force being put upon the players. However, good players have learned to “count” the odds and only play when the odds are in their favor.

    To say there is absolutely no luck in poker would be asinine.



  • Feints as they are now are fine.

    To use a feint takes risk. The risk of having your feint not work, then you at the least blow stamina for nothing.

    If you have trouble getting hit by feints, stop trying to read them. It’s very likely that you won’t read them all, not enough to rely on it.

    Instead control the situation, don’t stand in a position that allows for an effective feint. Generally this means the closer to your opponent the more likely their feint will work. Keep your distance, keep the initiative, don’t be afraid to backout/kick if things are getting shaky. You don’t have to kill your opponent in the fist 10 seconds. In Team Modes, you don’t have to kill your opponent, run away, come back and hit the little fucker in the back of the head Yarnu styles.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    There is SOME luck in poker, especially if you just want to get a lucky cash out and quit. Simply the shuffling of the deck is the external force being put upon the players. However, good players have learned to “count” the odds and only play when the odds are in their favor.

    To say there is absolutely no luck in poker would be asinine.

    Of course I wasn’t saying that there isn’t luck in poker. The best players win consistently though. Just like in RPS. Just like with feints. I think we agree though.



  • Bind feint to F10.

    Problem solved.



  • @Skreshavik:

    You’re talking about duel mechanics more than anything else…and it’s very flawed. Feints aren’t the magic bullet, but the obtuse circumstances involved in the exchange that will win the fight. Someone who decides to feint outside of their zone in an attempt to psyche me or steps into my zone and then starts winding up, I will punish them 100% of the time and press my advantage. If they’re out of their zone, they’re gonna either whiff or disengage. Both times, I close the distance and initiate the exchange due to their stamina disadvantage. If they decide to step in my zone and then windup, I get a free hit or force a FtP, again leading to a stam disadvantage.

    Feinting fights are almost 100% skill because you need to know weapon ranges and their attack patterns. If you know weapon ranges, you know how to start a feint fight. And after you engage, you’re thinking three steps ahead and playing off your intuition on how the player will react and catch them out of their parry. And lets just say you screw up somewhere and you’re getting feinted. The dreaded overhead brandistock feint at facehug distance into a stab/swing as an example. You can either dash to the left of the enemy player (tracers start on their right side) or you can pull a moose and matrix to victory since not a lot of people drag their attacks around while feinting. Some feints are near-impossible to read, such as the z-stab feint drag of the SoW. You can’t matrix away from it due to the enemy camera lowering to the ground into a successful overhead. So you rely on your intuition and try to break the combo with a kick and reset the fight, or attempt to disrupt the combo because 0.8 flinch times allow that.

    And even then, this is a 1v1 scenario. In a team fight, feinting burns a shitload of stamina and increases the length of the fight, for better or for worse.

    You are not ignored.

    Ok, so this is how you play with feints. You have given a very detailed explanation. So why don’t you think it is a good idea to limit the feintability of heavier weapons? You say feinting burns a shitload of stamina, which may be true if you feint multiple times, but as of now you can feint 6 times with any weapon and still have stamina left over for a parry or two.



  • Feinting with heavier weapons…they’re in a pretty bad spot with the flinch in release bug and most of them the problem stems from handle hits instead of feints. The Zwei and the Messer are probably the only two heavy weapons that can get away with feinting because of their accelerated overheads. Other heavy weapons just have too long of a windup time…If you also consider it some thought, you’ll hurt weapons that need CFtP most and buff weapons that don’t (maul CFtP times compared to dagger CFtP times.)

    Heavy weapon feints are also incredibly easy to read from a distance, and it would be silly to try feinting in facehug range since you’ll get flinched into oblivion. You’re thinking of a theoretical sceario with something like…I dunno, the maul and feinting to victory, right? Feint. Explode head. Feint. Explode head. Repeat ad naseum. Well, you might or might not predict the use of the feint, but you’ll have plenty of time to discern from visual data rather than intuition. The only heavy weapon feints that work well are the ones that can strike at the moment of release. Handle hits from a polearm or Messer/Zwei accelerated overheads are a couple examples. You can’t wait for the grunt otherwise they will have already struck you. You can try to flinch, but the windup times are only a tenth or two of a second slower than most other two-handers. I leave the Gmace out because you’ll eventually notice the windup time if they’re trying to psyche you out with an accelerated. Heavy weapons don’t perform well with feints. You’re better of dragging or controlling your zone than feinting.



  • Every weapon can be used to feint. A good feint is about messing with the timing of the battle. Shit, you don’t even have to push feint to feint. A jump will sometimes do it, a head bob, simply doing nothing. All these can be seen as feints (well maybe not doing nothing), it is why combo feints are the most dangerous and had to be nerfed, so easy to screw with timing expectation.



  • @Toll:

    Every weapon can be used to feint. A good feint is about messing with the timing of the battle. Shit, you don’t even have to push feint to feint. A jump will sometimes do it, a head bob, simply doing nothing. All these can be seen as feints (well maybe not doing nothing), it is why combo feints are the most dangerous and had to be nerfed, so easy to screw with timing expectation.

    I found as an archer I could successfully land the first two hits and then I’d be parried. So I started landing the first two and then I’d pause for a bit and then swing again after they parry the air.



  • The head bob is a fun one.



  • I found as an archer I could successfully land the first two hits and then I’d be parried. So I started landing the first two and then I’d pause for a bit and then swing again after they parry the air.

    That applies to any fast weapon, it works really with the norse sword too. The ol double attack pause attack trick, the variation of this is to intentionally miss an attack and combo into a real attack, same thing happens in generally and looks a little more convincing, except costs extra stamina for the missed attack.



  • Quote from my edit:

    Jesus. How hard do I have to try to make it clear…
    Check this out. Which weapon to choose: Longsword or messer?

    Messer has high damage, decent range, fast drags, slow drags, 3/2 shots knights.

    Longsword has low damage, average speed, slightly longer range, not as slow drags, fast drags, 4/3 shots knights.

    Why would you choose the longsword? It has one special advantage. A very slight range buff. With my proposed fix, the longsword would have at least two special advantages (stamina). That would make it almost worth using. The messer wouldn’t just be blatantly better. There would actually be balance. Would you really sacrifice dragging versatility, a 3 hit to kill on knights, 2 shot kill to vans, and a one hit to kill on MAAs and Archers for a slight bit more range!?

    I hope this highlighted it a bit better.



  • @Skreshavik:

    Feinting with heavier weapons…they’re in a pretty bad spot with the flinch in release bug and most of them the problem stems from handle hits instead of feints. The Zwei and the Messer are probably the only two heavy weapons that can get away with feinting because of their accelerated overheads. Other heavy weapons just have too long of a windup time…If you also consider it some thought, you’ll hurt weapons that need CFtP most and buff weapons that don’t (maul CFtP times compared to dagger CFtP times.)

    Heavy weapon feints are also incredibly easy to read from a distance, and it would be silly to try feinting in facehug range since you’ll get flinched into oblivion. You’re thinking of a theoretical sceario with something like…I dunno, the maul and feinting to victory, right? Feint. Explode head. Feint. Explode head. Repeat ad naseum. Well, you might or might not predict the use of the feint, but you’ll have plenty of time to discern from visual data rather than intuition. The only heavy weapon feints that work well are the ones that can strike at the moment of release. Handle hits from a polearm or Messer/Zwei accelerated overheads are a couple examples. You can’t wait for the grunt otherwise they will have already struck you. You can try to flinch, but the windup times are only a tenth or two of a second slower than most other two-handers. I leave the Gmace out because you’ll eventually notice the windup time if they’re trying to psyche you out with an accelerated. Heavy weapons don’t perform well with feints. You’re better of dragging or controlling your zone than feinting.

    I like the way you think, Skresh, and I think you’re right about the handle hits.

    Now that I think about it, I duel a guy regularly that uses a feinting maul and beat him quite easily as knight broadsword because his feints are easy to read. The only reason I ever even get hit is because of a handle hit/bad read.

    Maybe we should fix handle hits before thinking about fixing feints. My idea would work in theory right now, but it wouldn’t fix the greater problem of handle hits and if this greater problem were fixed I am not sure if my idea would even be relevant anymore. We will see though.

    I’m in agreement with you.



  • I often go Longsword, that extra bit of range can make a big difference, and 1 handed messar sucks pretty hard, whilst 1 haned longsword is useful, both with and without a shield.



  • @JimmyTryhard:

    I like the way you think, Skresh, and I think you’re right about the handle hits.

    Now that I think about it, I duel a guy regularly that uses a feinting maul and beat him quite easily as knight broadsword because his feints are easy to read. The only reason I ever even get hit is because of a handle hit/bad read.

    Maybe we should fix handle hits before thinking about fixing feints. My idea would work in theory right now, but it wouldn’t fix the greater problem of handle hits and if this greater problem were fixed I am not sure if my idea would even be relevant anymore. We will see though.

    I’m in agreement with you.

    I wouldn’t go so far as saying that I’m right, as I’m just a simple pubber who occassionally duels the big guys…although, I do know handle hits as they stand now are in a very precarious situation. Handle hits remove the risk of the heavier weapons to a greater/lesser degree because their…well, you get hit in the moment of release. On the other hand, if you decide to balance around the handle hits, you can overnerf the weapon. Take the viking axe for example. Before the windup nerf, it was a one-trick pony, but an effective one. Feint into overhead. The handle hit made that very effective. As of now? It’s a joke-tier weapon, arguably worse than the dub axe.

    We’ll see how it goes. Polehammer feints are frikkin’ deadly, but until handle hits are remedied, the best you can do is take initiative and hold it.


Log in to reply