A suggestion on feints! :D



  • For a while now, I have pondered the existence of feints in Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. Feinting as a mechanic is good in some areas, but it certainly does affect other aspects of the game negatively. This post is a suggestion on how to make feints more balanced.

    First, I am going to explain feint fights.
    Feint fighting is more about “strategy” than non feint fights. In a feint fight, you have to decide on the fly if you should feint your attack, block/feint to parry, or allow your attack to follow through based on what you think your enemy will do.

    -If you feint, you risk opening yourself to attack, but you also have a chance of tricking your opponent into blocking, giving you a free hit.
    -If you allow your attack to follow through, you risk your opponent blocking it and allowing him to be on the offensive. However, you also have a chance to hit him if he opens himself up with a feint.
    -If you choose to block/feint to parry, you have a chance to block your enemy’s attack and not take damage. However, blocking opens yourself up to attack. Also, if you feint to parry, you lose extra stamina.

    Basically, {feint beats block/ftp, block/ftp beats attack, attack beats feint.} Rock, Paper, Scissors.

    Now I am going to talk about the positives of feints.

    • Fighting a defensive player with feints will shatter their defense, allowing easy wins
    • If both players use feints, each player has an equal chance of winning, leveling the playing field for noobs and veterans to battle equally (can be good or bad, depending on if you’re a veteran or noob or in btwn)
    • If someone calls your feints, you lose stamina AND health, deterring feint spamming
    • Fast weapons like the holy water sprinkler can counter feints more easily due to its flinch potential, creating more somewhat balance
    • Shields can counter feints almost altogether, creating somewhat more balance (although kicks against shields can open them up instead of feints)

    Now I am going to talk about the negatives of feints.

    • Technical mastery of other mechanics besides feints is not as rewarded, as feinting fights are more about chance than skill
    • Feints are not realistically “readable” but rather “predictable” (if everyone had 0 ping, 144 Hz monitors, 144 FPS, great reaction time and perfect vision, then this may possibly be void, but this has never occurred in a real setting)
    • Many people are used to non feint duels, so their resistance to feints is very weak, expecting to block every swing
    • Faster, harder hitting weapons are more rewarded (grand mace, poleaxe, greatsword, halberd, etc.), causing balance issues that promotes specific classes and compositions, limiting variety
    • Fights are based on chance, rather than skill due to its rock paper scissors nature

    My proposed balance fix:

    • Increase stamina cost of feints to deter spamming and increase importance of learning other mechanics (effectively increasing the skill cap)
    • Vary stamina cost of feints based on the weapon (e.g. Heavy weapons like the grand mace cost more stamina than e.g. the sword of war) to promote variance in class/weapon composition and encourage niche playstyles (Fix a lot of balance issues and encourage the return of underused weapons)

    ***Noteworthy stuff:
    -Feint to parrying will cost more stamina, but I do not view this as a problem because feint to parrying is basically correcting a mistake. Feint to parries are only used in situations where mistimed/misplaced swings are performed. So naturally, punishing mistakes is good.

    -Some smaller, faster weapons will also need a stamina cost increase, because feinting a fast weapon like the holy water sprinkler can be considered just as overpowered as a feinting grand mace

    -This proposition makes sense because weapons like a broadsword have 4 hit kill potential, while a gmace has 2 hit kill potential, but they can now compete because the broad can feint more

    EDIT: I don’t want to completely destroy feint duels; I want to make them more balanced and varied. This would simply make lesser weapons as of now compete with the bigger ones without having one being the blatantly superior to another. Can’t you agree that some weapons are just simply better at feint duels?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Jesus. How hard do I have to try to make it clear…
    Check this out. Which weapon to choose: Longsword or messer?

    Messer has high damage, decent range, fast drags, slow drags, 3/2 shots knights.

    Longsword has low damage, average speed, slightly longer range, not as slow drags, fast drags, 4/3 shots knights.

    Why would you choose the longsword? It has one special advantage. A very slight range buff. With my proposed fix, the longsword would have at least two special advantages (stamina). That would make it almost worth using. The messer wouldn’t just be blatantly better. There would actually be balance. Would you really sacrifice dragging versatility, a 3 hit to kill on knights, 2 shot kill to vans, and a one hit to kill on MAAs and Archers for a slight bit more range!?

    I hope this highlighted it a bit better.



  • lol you want to dumb down the game without fixing the actual problem



  • I don’t think there is a problem. Post is flawed though. There’s no mention of how easily feints are countered in teamplay which balances them just fine.



  • Another advantage of feints is that they are a counter to the use of recovery parrys or CFtP when blocking a counterattack. If you manage to avoid an attack by a weapon and move into a counterattack any competent player will be able to block the attack using either of the two mechanics negating any vulnerability they had for missing an attack. However if you feint this counterattack and cause the opponent naturally block the expected incoming attack it allows a truly successful counter attack to be implemented. This results in a layered combat of strike>sidestep+counterattack>recovery/CFtP parry>feint+delivered attack. With that said increasing the stamina cost necessary to complete this may result in a class running out of stamina before they can successfully kill the opponent, even if it is done perfectly.



  • Vary stamina cost of feints based on the weapon (e.g. Heavy weapons like the grand mace cost more stamina than e.g. the sword of war) to promote variance in class/weapon composition and encourage niche playstyles (Fix a lot of balance issues and encourage the return of underused weapons)

    You don’t understand how feints work, quiet plz.



  • Harlot what you’ve stated is not entirely incorrect but it could be incorrect based on a couple of different variables. The degree to which stamina drain for feinting is increased would decide whether or not what you’ve said holds true, it may only be a minor nerf to feinting. There is also the fact that you would be able to do it more with lighter weapons, whereas with heavier weapons you would have to only do it when it would be absolutely effective. So it wouldn’t make that sequence of events impossible, simply much less spammable.



  • You’re talking about duel mechanics more than anything else…and it’s very flawed. Feints aren’t the magic bullet, but the obtuse circumstances involved in the exchange that will win the fight. Someone who decides to feint outside of their zone in an attempt to psyche me or steps into my zone and then starts winding up, I will punish them 100% of the time and press my advantage. If they’re out of their zone, they’re gonna either whiff or disengage. Both times, I close the distance and initiate the exchange due to their stamina disadvantage. If they decide to step in my zone and then windup, I get a free hit or force a FtP, again leading to a stam disadvantage.

    Feinting fights are almost 100% skill because you need to know weapon ranges and their attack patterns. If you know weapon ranges, you know how to start a feint fight. And after you engage, you’re thinking three steps ahead and playing off your intuition on how the player will react and catch them out of their parry. And lets just say you screw up somewhere and you’re getting feinted. The dreaded overhead brandistock feint at facehug distance into a stab/swing as an example. You can either dash to the left of the enemy player (tracers start on their right side) or you can pull a moose and matrix to victory since not a lot of people drag their attacks around while feinting. Some feints are near-impossible to read, such as the z-stab feint drag of the SoW. You can’t matrix away from it due to the enemy camera lowering to the ground into a successful overhead. So you rely on your intuition and try to break the combo with a kick and reset the fight, or attempt to disrupt the combo because 0.8 flinch times allow that.

    And even then, this is a 1v1 scenario. In a team fight, feinting burns a shitload of stamina and increases the length of the fight, for better or for worse.



  • @Karasu:

    I don’t think there is a problem. Post is flawed though. There’s no mention of how easily feints are countered in teamplay which balances them just fine.

    This nerf to feinting would still be viable in teamplay due to the fact that rather than having excessive feinting to reduce chance of missing, people would only be feinting when they are sure it would be absolutely effective. Thus, team play would be less of a feint spam sort of scenario and more of an actual teamwork scenario, rather than engaging in 1v1s where you feint kill your opponent then rinse and repeat, you would be encouraged to double tap and work with your team to take down enemies. Making the title “team game” much more apt.



  • @Dofoo:

    Harlot what you’ve stated is not entirely incorrect but it could be incorrect based on a couple of different variables. The degree to which stamina drain for feinting is increased would decide whether or not what you’ve said holds true, it may only be a minor nerf to feinting. There is also the fact that you would be able to do it more with lighter weapons, whereas with heavier weapons you would have to only do it when it would be absolutely effective. So it wouldn’t make that sequence of events impossible, simply much less spammable.

    Just for reference this is a strategy I use quite often. So the scenario was written with the perspective of a spears user. Considering they cannot CFtP/Recovery Parry like other weapons this is the strategy I have adopted.



  • @Dofoo:

    This nerf to feinting would still be viable in teamplay due to the fact that rather than having excessive feinting to reduce chance of missing, people would only be feinting when they are sure it would be absolutely effective. Thus, team play would be less of a feint spam sort of scenario and more of an actual teamwork scenario, rather than engaging in 1v1s where you feint kill your opponent then rinse and repeat, you would be encouraged to double tap and work with your team to take down enemies. Making the title “team game” much more apt.

    Feint spammers get punished in high level play as it is. And sure feints would still be viable but likely underpowered and defensive feints would be ruined.



  • Feints are fine.



  • @Cerebral:

    Just for reference this is a strategy I use quite often. So the scenario it was written with the perspective of a spears user. Considering they cannot CFtP/Recovery Parry like other weapons this is the strategy I have adopted.

    I think the lack of CFtP/Recovery parry in spears is a fair balance for the fact they have a MASSIVE range advantage over other weapons as well lmbs faster than almost any other attack in the game for close range. they still have FtP as well as not being lacking damage at all (brandi 1 shots maa).



  • @Dofoo:

    I think the lack of CFtP/Recovery parry in spears is a fair balance for the fact they have a MASSIVE range advantage over other weapons as well lmbs faster than almost any other attack in the game for close range. they still have FtP as well as not being lacking damage at all (brandi 1 shots maa).

    Ya I found that spears were much more balanced with recovery parry gone. They’re in a pretty decent spot right now.



  • @Dofoo:

    I think the lack of CFtP/Recovery parry in spears is a fair balance for the fact they have a MASSIVE range advantage over other weapons as well lmbs faster than almost any other attack in the game for close range. they still have FtP as well as not being lacking damage at all (brandi 1 shots maa).

    Plus they have perhaps the best dragging ability in the game. The spears are in a nice place right now. The point of my comment was more to explain how feints can be used in a way that actually improves the complexity of the combat, rather that limiting it.



  • @Karasu:

    Feint spammers get punished in high level play as it is. And sure feints would still be viable but likely underpowered and defensive feints would be ruined.

    Feints should be secondary to actual attacks where as right now you have many people relying on feints to make their attacks work making feinting superior considerably to pure attacking. Defensive feints, however, are the issue, in dueling what jimmy said is correct and CFtP is only used to fix mistakes anyways, in team games is where the issue lies. However, I think that if the stamina drain increase were not TOO major it would not have as adverse an effect as you would think. Right now the amount of feints you can do in succession is 6 with every and all weapons, maybe have it be 5 with lighter weapons and 4 with heavier weapons. Not so big a change that itd ruin defensive feinting.



  • @Dofoo:

    Feints should be secondary to actual attacks where as right now you have many people relying on feints to make their attacks work making feinting superior considerably to pure attacking. Defensive feints, however, are the issue, in dueling what jimmy said is correct and CFtP is only used to fix mistakes anyways, in team games is where the issue lies. However, I think that if the stamina drain increase were not TOO major it would not have as adverse an effect as you would think. Right now the amount of feints you can do in succession is 6 with every and all weapons, maybe have it be 5 with lighter weapons and 4 with heavier weapons. Not so big a change that itd ruin defensive feinting.

    But attacking is superior in scrims. 2v1ing and just attacking is still the most efficient way to take down players.



  • @Karasu:

    But attacking is superior in scrims. 2v1ing and just attacking is still the most efficient way to take down players.

    Both people just attacking gives the defender the chance to double parry or parry into parry and get away using knockback or just running at the right time, the most efficent way currently is having one feint the defender and the other hit then the guy who feinted initially hit. That method is however reliant on feints.



  • @Dofoo:

    Both people just attacking gives the defender the chance to double parry or parry into parry and get away using knockback or just running at the right time, the most efficent way currently is having one feint the defender and the other hit then the guy who feinted initially hit. That method is however reliant on feints.

    PiP is hardly an issue though. If you’re 2v1ing effectively you can just get around the 2nd parry.



  • @Karasu:

    PiP is hardly an issue though. If you’re 2v1ing effectively you can just get around the 2nd parry.

    That’s circumstantial, the positioning of the players and the surroundings can change that and there’s also the fact that rarely do you see a perfect 2v1. But with the one feint other hits method your 2v1, positioning none of that has to be perfect and the surroundings dont really matter.



  • @Dofoo:

    That’s circumstantial, the positioning of the players and the surroundings can change that and there’s also the fact that rarely do you see a perfect 2v1. But with the one feint other hits method your 2v1, positioning none of that has to be perfect and the surroundings dont really matter.

    Feinting is also circumstantial as it allows time for teammates to come help. Everything is circumstantial. But in most circumstances 2 players don’t want to feint against 1.


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