Archer is Vanguard's weakness. Vanguard is most popular to play. Put 2 and 2 together



  • @lemonater47:

    Archers have the lowest DPS and are at a disadvantage in melee combat. Except with daggers but they could use a nerf.

    Archers aren’t OP. Some people just don’t like sudden random death from no where. But that’s the whole premise.

    if you think archer with a shortsword is OP in melee why don’t MAA’s use it???

    Archers heavily rely on their opponent being over confident in melee. Otherwise the archers chances aren’t that great. A drag or feint can get an archer killed.

    But archers are OP, they are biggest game changers.


  • Global Moderator

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    But archers are OP, they are biggest game changers.

    For better or for worse. Too many archers can mean the team with that many archers looses as well as wins.

    Like I said. Archers are sudden random death from nowhere. But in terms of the classes individual effectiveness they are the worst. Team wise they can work or not work depending on the map and who the archers are. They are the most dishonourable class. Killing from a distance.

    But it a good vanguard wrecks more damage than a good archer.



  • It’s more efficient to have good archer on your team than good knight/vanguard/maa because archers make the biggest impact on the game which is ridiculous considering that 3/4 classe are melee. The only way to counter good archer is by another good archer. Even if you run full team melee of veterans with +1k hours on their account, you can still get destroyed by one very good archer and average melee. That is bullshit. Ranged class shouldn’t be able to carry a team so much.

    In EU competitive scene no1 can be bothered to play LTS because it’s decided by which archer kills someone first. Lotto archer-fest.

    And don’t start with “hurr archers are only OP in competitive”, this game shouldn’t be balanced around public games. It’s time to nerf the archers.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    It’s more efficient to have good archer on your team than good knight/vanguard/maa because archers make the biggest impact on the game which is ridiculous considering that 3/4 classe are melee. The only way to counter good archer is by another good archer. Even if you run full team melee of veterans with +1k hours on their account, you can still get destroyed by one very good archer and average melee. That is bullshit. Ranged class shouldn’t be able to carry a team so much.

    In EU competitive scene no1 can be bothered to play LTS because it’s decided by which archer kills someone first. Lotto archer-fest.

    And don’t start with “hurr archers are only OP in competitive”, this game shouldn’t be balanced around public games. It’s time to nerf the archers.

    Is Nova actually saying “archers are fine, just get better with shield (wut?) and learn 2 strafe?”. Did he also say “you can react to the projectile speed?”. Oh sure, ill just run towards him then just observe the angle the projectile approaches me at and make appropriate adjustments to my direction and shield positioning.

    I dont even… HHHRHRRRRRRRRRR… BHRHRHRHRHHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. UUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRR… ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH FUUUUUUUUCK WHY U SAY THESE FUCKING THINGS SHIIIIIT FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK ARGHHHHHHHH

    DPS is meaningless to balance discussion here as archers can hit at any range: and they get more and more accurate the closer you get. And Archer DPS is not exactly low…

    Keep headshot damage the same? IDK here - but im pretty sure the top archers get a lot of headshots… (planetus “you see that guy? no head” x40). He doesnt seem to find it so hard, neither does DJ.

    Dont get me wrong, I love a good archer carry like the next guy: when DJ has a great game and hits basically every shot its great fun to go in there and mop up their thoroughly molested melee with 0% effort and come away with a pub KD - but its not fair :P.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    In EU competitive scene no1 can be bothered to play LTS because it’s decided by which archer kills someone first. Lotto archer-fest.

    NA still hasn’t realized this.



  • @Karasu:

    NA still hasn’t realized this.

    I’ve had this stance for over 8 months now.

    As a good archer LTS is so fucking boring because it always comes down to me picking off the enemy archer because I understand the concept of mindgames and pre-firing. Moor LTS is the worst offender, where archers try to pick each other off at their maximum range, missing 95% of their shots each round until one lands and the archer dies in 1 hit.

    Then of course you get an archer advantage since the enemy archer is dead and a numbers advantage as well so whoever gets the first pick off wins. LTS is just a bad gamemode for competitive play, Counter Strike solved the problem of sudden death gamemodes decades ago by adding objectives. :cower:



  • We’ll ask someone for a scrim. They say LTS. We say no. They call us elitists.

    True stories.



  • @Flippy:

    We’ll ask someone for a scrim. They say LTS. We say no. They call us elitists.

    True stories.

    In our case we just facepalm and reluctantly agree :(



  • I think LTS scrims are fun without archers.



  • LTS got much less interesting with the addition of those endgame icons. It also buffed Archers as it makes it much harder to flank them or even use cover. Not the way to go in my opinion: floating icons etc. should be kept at a bare minimum - I think even objective markers offer way too much hand-holding that reduces the tactical options most of the time (and often ends up favoring Archers too).

    As for Archers themslves and the topic here: Yes Archers are the main counter to Knights and limiting them causes the Vanguard population to go up or even rampage because of missing counters. However, this only applies to mass-Vanguard where 4 Archers are simply not enough. Too bad limiting Archers makes the probability of encountering mass-Vanguard much higher. Now Torn Banner could keep going the wrong way and introduce a Vanguard limit reducing the player options even more and making the game even less diverse.

    Or they could remove the Archer limit making the game more diverse (and better in my opinion) and providing the options to deal with Vanguard spam. But then we run into the old problem: the main counter to Archers… is Archers. Which is probably the main reason they introduced the limit in the first place. If one team starts to use Archers to great effect the other teams Archer count will increase in an effort to snipe them. This increase in Archers causes the first team to use even more Archers to counter them more effectively. Which in turn might cause the second team to use even more Archers.

    So the way to deal with this is:
    (1) Make Archer balance high priority.
    (2) Balance Archers:

    • less easy to play (higher risk, less forgiving)
    • not the main counter to itself (it should be more effective to pick up a shield and charge than sniping them)
      (3) Get rid of the Archer limit (and overused floating icons - the King needs no tracking device either)
      (4) Add a Hardcore mode (100% FF, team flinch, 1st person only, ranged spread, no floating icons and less health regeneration)


  • @Evil:

    So the way to deal with this is:
    (2) Balance Archers:

    • not the main counter to itself (it should be more effective to pick up a shield and charge than sniping them)

    That might not be possible, In almost every situation in which there is a ranged class combatant the most effective class to take him out is another member of that ranged class. This is due to the fact that these classes are the only ones who can be within striking range of the opposing ranged combatant, but the opponent themselves must lay within their striking range. Basically this pattern is born from the fact that if you can hit him he can hit you, something that isn’t always true if a ranged class is fighting a melee class



  • LTS nuuuuuu



  • @Karasu:

    NA still hasn’t realized this.

    I can say that everyone in Vq and multiple other NA clans knew that LTS was a crap game mode way back because of this very reason. There are multiple threads from a long time ago discussing it. I can’t speak to what NA players are playing now, but i think most of the people that realized LTS was bad back then quit by now.



  • A zwei vanguard flanking around the edge of combat and easily 1-shotting archers in the side is pretty anti archer, you even get smoke pots to help make this happen.

    A lesser version of this is a MAA with shield, same thing, sneak up the side and flank the archers. You have a shield to help too.

    Knights are too slow to get around and do the flank. There is a high chance the archers will notice what you’re doing before you can do it.



  • @sharkh20:

    I can say that everyone in Vq and multiple other NA clans knew that LTS was a crap game mode way back because of this very reason. There are multiple threads from a long time ago discussing it. I can’t speak to what NA players are playing now, but i think most of the people that realized LTS was bad back then quit by now.

    Since everyone who realized it was a crap gamemode has quit like you said, I’m obviously only speaking about the current NA scene.



  • Elite Team killer, I’m curious. How many hours have you played, and what is your rank? You have intrigued me.



  • @userper said in Archer is Vanguard's weakness. Vanguard is most popular to play. Put 2 and 2 together:

    Elite Team killer, I’m curious. How many hours have you played, and what is your rank? You have intrigued me.

    Bump. Level 50. And 4 years later, I’ve now played this game since 2012 and I can CONFIRM, everything I said in the OP is true. I am now fairly decent at all four classes, and can usually beat people easily who are under level 40 with every class. I still main archer, but now I play knight about 30% of the time, vanguard 20% and Man at Arms about 15% of the time. I beat archers the exact way I described in OP. Either wear a shield and hit trade, or move around a lot. If you are capable of a ridiculous drag or a reverse overhead, like it seems everyone is able to do now, there is no excuse for you to be an immobile target with a constant vector of approach when engaging an archer. Use the same mouse techniques and move around.

    Everything I said in the OP is still true. You don’t want to lose to an archer? Either wear a shield or move around.

    Regarding up close fighting with an archer, YES they are faster. How do you win? Hit trade. A knight only needs one shot to kill an archer.

    Afraid of getting shot while you flank or approach? Raise that shield, jump and move around. Hell, many knights just wear the shield on their back, jump and spin. I’ve started doing this as a knight and it works pretty well if you time it right.

    So once again, in conclusion, Archers are not OP. You just suck.



  • @evil-minion said in Archer is Vanguard's weakness. Vanguard is most popular to play. Put 2 and 2 together:

    LTS got much less interesting with the addition of those endgame icons. It also buffed Archers as it makes it much harder to flank them or even use cover. Not the way to go in my opinion: floating icons etc. should be kept at a bare minimum - I think even objective markers offer way too much hand-holding that reduces the tactical options most of the time (and often ends up favoring Archers too).

    As for Archers themslves and the topic here: Yes Archers are the main counter to Knights and limiting them causes the Vanguard population to go up or even rampage because of missing counters. However, this only applies to mass-Vanguard where 4 Archers are simply not enough. Too bad limiting Archers makes the probability of encountering mass-Vanguard much higher. Now Torn Banner could keep going the wrong way and introduce a Vanguard limit reducing the player options even more and making the game even less diverse.

    Or they could remove the Archer limit making the game more diverse (and better in my opinion) and providing the options to deal with Vanguard spam. But then we run into the old problem: the main counter to Archers… is Archers. Which is probably the main reason they introduced the limit in the first place. If one team starts to use Archers to great effect the other teams Archer count will increase in an effort to snipe them. This increase in Archers causes the first team to use even more Archers to counter them more effectively. Which in turn might cause the second team to use even more Archers.

    So the way to deal with this is:
    (1) Make Archer balance high priority.
    (2) Balance Archers:

    • less easy to play (higher risk, less forgiving)
    • not the main counter to itself (it should be more effective to pick up a shield and charge than sniping them)
      (3) Get rid of the Archer limit (and overused floating icons - the King needs no tracking device either)
      (4) Add a Hardcore mode (100% FF, team flinch, 1st person only, ranged spread, no floating icons and less health regeneration)

    I have to strongly disagree that the icons buffed archers, because it made it impossible for them to hide and snipe you.