Archer is Vanguard's weakness. Vanguard is most popular to play. Put 2 and 2 together



  • I believe that the main frustrations people have concerning archers are a result of the fact that archers are not only a range class as one would expect, but they also possess a melee capability on a level nearly equal to the MAA. Fighting an archer is practically a two-stage fight, the first being to merely get close enough to actualy strike him. During this stage even the most complicated and intricate of evasion maneuvers are not usually sufficient to avoid taking damage. If the melee combatant ever reaches the archer, which considering the speed gap between the classes may not even happen, they engage in a melee fight. It is at this point of the engagement where the frustrations harbored by most people come into play. At the beginning of the fight chances are that the melee combatant is now at around half health and low stamina as a result of the evasions he must have pulled off. The archer however is most likely at full health and full stamina. This in itself is one particularly frustrating aspect about the fight but the really big problem is that the archer is just as good a melee fighter as a maa. If the archer was somehow deficient in melee fighting this would offset the nearly inevitable stamina and heath deficiency that the melee combatant would acquire. But this is not the case, in fact the archer’s special ability actually improves its melee fighting. So what we have is a ranged fighter who has the exclusive ability to assign damage until an indeterminate gap in distance is crossed all the while being able to assign damage and benefiting from the almost paradoxical fact that he is able to use his ranged attacks more effectively the closer the target is to him, and is just as capable of melee combat as the other classes.

    Many players find the fact that a class is allowed to possess both of these qualities as a fighter makes it overpowered in a sense.



  • Archer needs his backstab bonus. Muh vanguard 2 shotting shortsword sidestabs :333

    Srsly though Shortsword has same htk vs vanguards as sword of war with stabs if you angle them right lol



  • Is anyone going to take into account that most archers can’t aim for shit? Or that a lot of them refuse to change to their secondary until you’re sword has already left a notch in their skull? Or that flanking them from anything more than 85 degrees is a near guarantee that they won’t see you coming because most of them have no situational awareness whatsoever? Or that a lot of them haven’t the slightest clue how to sue their secondary other than slashing repeatedly?

    Not all archers are great. Most of them suck. Be patient and take the long way around, come up behind them and empty their brain matter onto the floor. And learn to dodge arrows. Zig-zagging in a predictable, short pattern is almost as dumb as running in a straight line.



  • @Baglady74:

    Is anyone going to take into account that most archers can’t aim for shit? Or that a lot of them refuse to change to their secondary until you’re sword has already left a notch in their skull? Or that flanking them from anything more than 85 degrees is a near guarantee that they won’t see you coming because most of them have no situational awareness whatsoever? Or that a lot of them haven’t the slightest clue how to sue their secondary other than slashing repeatedly?

    Not all archers are great. Most of them suck. Be patient and take the long way around, come up behind them and empty their brain matter onto the floor. And learn to dodge arrows. Zig-zagging in a predictable, short pattern is almost as dumb as running in a straight line.

    There are no bad archers in comp matches.



  • In fact in competitive matches it is often each teams archers that make or break each individual round.



  • Yeah, don’t balance the game around bad players lol. Not a good plan for the future.



  • What are you talking about OP? Archers are the strongest class in this game bar none. It doesn’t matter what matchup. The only fair archer matchup is archer vs archer. A good archer will destroy most knights without even trying. I have mained shield knight (both tower and kite) for a relatively long time, and I can tell you that shields are basically meaningless to a good archer. First, you cant hold your shield up for extended periods of time because it will drain stamina, expose you to kicks, and limit your vision. You can jump, but doing so drains your stamina, and shield knights have precious little stamina to waste on such a maneuver. A good archer will simply shoot around the shield, hell, I’ve been headshotted over a raised, tilted up tower shield. Then, even if you get into close range, they can switch from bow to secondary weapon incredibly quickly and even switch to their secondary after being flinched, in time to block the ensuing combo. If a knight (the tankiest class in the game) takes one arrow from almost any bow, he is down to basically 1/2 to 2/3 health before even getting into melee combat. That is a huge deal, and completely breaks the balance of the game. Archers do way too much damage for how incredibly easy it is to hit people. As for melee, a good shortsword archer is basically on even ground with a shield knight, the shortsword is perfect for stabbing around shields. Add in the ridiculous backstab bonus, and archer melee is relatively powerful when used right. TL:DR: Archers are undeniably OP and need a nerf. Proposed nerfs: 1. Remove Backstab bonus (this has to be done) AND one of the following: 1. Drastically reduced body/leg damage but same headshot damage OR 2. Bows/Xbows require stamina to draw/reload, and to hold a drawn arrow after a certain period of time.



  • @Bluebeard:

    Love how noobs say: ‘‘SHIELDS COUNTER ARCHERS HRRHH’’. When an archer is good enough shield does jack shit.

    Funny you say that, because you can also say, if the shield user is good enough the archer starts raging.

    It’s funny that people assume just because you have a shield, you can run in a straight line.

    Archers are only OP in LTS. But that’s a problem with LTS, because there is no incentive to attack.


  • Global Moderator

    Archers have the lowest DPS and are at a disadvantage in melee combat. Except with daggers but they could use a nerf.

    Archers aren’t OP. Some people just don’t like sudden random death from no where. But that’s the whole premise.

    if you think archer with a shortsword is OP in melee why don’t MAA’s use it???

    Archers heavily rely on their opponent being over confident in melee. Otherwise the archers chances aren’t that great. A drag or feint can get an archer killed.



  • In addition to that ^

    At long range, if you get hit by an archer, its primarily your fault. Projectile speeds aren’t fast enough for you to be unable to react to it.

    The most dangerous area to be in is medium range. Even at this range, it is not a 1-sided argument; archers are still about ‘prediction’ over aim, simply due to projectile speeds. The most vulnerable is when you’re fighting someone, they usually like to shoot right when you start your windup -> when you are most predictable.

    At close range you can either disarm their bow or they can try to take a risky shot and be destroyed because of it.

    Once more people start to learn to consistently mindgame archers, opinions will start to change. I do agree that flinch in release by projectiles is stupid though.



  • @lemonater47:

    Archers have the lowest DPS and are at a disadvantage in melee combat. Except with daggers but they could use a nerf. Archers aren’t OP. Some people just don’t like sudden random death from no where. But that’s the whole premise. if you think archer with a shortsword is OP in melee why don’t MAA’s use it??? Archers heavily rely on their opponent being over confident in melee. Otherwise the archers chances aren’t that great. A drag or feint can get an archer killed.

    Lowest DPS, but they can kill you at range without any chance for retaliation. Arrows also flinch pretty much in any state. I wasn’t saying shortsword was OP, though I’d argue its close or at the very least is strong enough that it makes the other options somewhat less viable. Also, archer melee is decent given their backpedal speed and such. I’m not saying its OP, but given their ability to deal such damage at range, their ability in melee is far too capable.



  • @lemonater47:

    Archers have the lowest DPS and are at a disadvantage in melee combat. Except with daggers but they could use a nerf.

    Archers aren’t OP. Some people just don’t like sudden random death from no where. But that’s the whole premise.

    if you think archer with a shortsword is OP in melee why don’t MAA’s use it???

    Archers heavily rely on their opponent being over confident in melee. Otherwise the archers chances aren’t that great. A drag or feint can get an archer killed.

    man at arms don’t have a backstab bonus which is triggered easily by strafing while attacking. The other reason maa don’t use shortsword is because they have the broadsword.

    As far as dps goes, it depends on whether you’re talking about bow damage or melee damage but each of those points can be argued. With a 1 htk headshot you could say that they have the MOST dps… 1 second = 100% damage. You could say that if they DONT hit the head then they may have the lowest dps. If you’re talking about melee, they can dispatch a knight much faster than a knight could kill them potentially, so you could say in this case the knight actually has the lowest dps. They can also kill vanguards in melee with 2 simple hits making them in a lot of cases better vanguard killers than a knight with a longsword, or even take a vanguard down faster.

    as for getting hit far away, this is usually the case because you can’t always watch what an archer is doing since they are constantly shooting, and if you only focus on what the archer is doing, then you’re not really focusing on waht the melee is doing, and vice versa.



  • @50ShadesofClay:

    man at arms don’t have a backstab bonus which is triggered easily by strafing while attacking. The other reason maa don’t use shortsword is because they have the broadsword. As far as dps goes, it depends on whether you’re talking about bow damage or melee damage but each of those points can be argued. With a 1 htk headshot you could say that they have the MOST dps… 1 second = 100% damage. You could say that if they DONT hit the head then they may have the lowest dps. If you’re talking about melee, they can dispatch a knight much faster than a knight could kill them potentially, so you could say in this case the knight actually has the lowest dps. They can also kill vanguards in melee with 2 simple hits making them in a lot of cases better vanguard killers than a knight with a longsword, or even take a vanguard down faster. as for getting hit far away, this is usually the case because you can’t always watch what an archer is doing since they are constantly shooting, and if you only focus on what the archer is doing, then you’re not really focusing on waht the melee is doing, and vice versa.

    Not to mention the archer model/bow doesn’t always accurately track where they are aiming, which makes it even more difficult to read when/where they are shooting.



  • @SHH_:

    Not to mention the archer model/bow doesn’t always accurately track where they are aiming, which makes it even more difficult to read when/where they are shooting.

    that is also annoying. I hate it when im running at an archer thinking they dont see me, because they are looking almost 90 degrees away from me, and then all of a sudden i get shot with an arrow that comes out of their kidney.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    that is also annoying. I hate it when im running at an archer thinking they dont see me, because they are looking almost 90 degrees away from me, and then all of a sudden i get shot with an arrow that comes out of their kidney.

    I can see how that might be frustrating, especially when that archer is using a heavy crossbow, you never know if he’s aiming at you.

    Personally I’ve grown accustomed to it, having ranged fights with archers it seems like they can turn quite a fair bit and still be aiming at you, this needs to be addressed.



  • indeed, unreadable aim direction

    and of course though not a bug, crossbows staring at me is not a friendly feeling



  • @lemonater47:

    Archers have the lowest DPS and are at a disadvantage in melee combat. Except with daggers but they could use a nerf.

    Archers aren’t OP. Some people just don’t like sudden random death from no where. But that’s the whole premise.

    if you think archer with a shortsword is OP in melee why don’t MAA’s use it???

    Archers heavily rely on their opponent being over confident in melee. Otherwise the archers chances aren’t that great. A drag or feint can get an archer killed.

    But archers are OP, they are biggest game changers.


  • Global Moderator

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    But archers are OP, they are biggest game changers.

    For better or for worse. Too many archers can mean the team with that many archers looses as well as wins.

    Like I said. Archers are sudden random death from nowhere. But in terms of the classes individual effectiveness they are the worst. Team wise they can work or not work depending on the map and who the archers are. They are the most dishonourable class. Killing from a distance.

    But it a good vanguard wrecks more damage than a good archer.



  • It’s more efficient to have good archer on your team than good knight/vanguard/maa because archers make the biggest impact on the game which is ridiculous considering that 3/4 classe are melee. The only way to counter good archer is by another good archer. Even if you run full team melee of veterans with +1k hours on their account, you can still get destroyed by one very good archer and average melee. That is bullshit. Ranged class shouldn’t be able to carry a team so much.

    In EU competitive scene no1 can be bothered to play LTS because it’s decided by which archer kills someone first. Lotto archer-fest.

    And don’t start with “hurr archers are only OP in competitive”, this game shouldn’t be balanced around public games. It’s time to nerf the archers.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    It’s more efficient to have good archer on your team than good knight/vanguard/maa because archers make the biggest impact on the game which is ridiculous considering that 3/4 classe are melee. The only way to counter good archer is by another good archer. Even if you run full team melee of veterans with +1k hours on their account, you can still get destroyed by one very good archer and average melee. That is bullshit. Ranged class shouldn’t be able to carry a team so much.

    In EU competitive scene no1 can be bothered to play LTS because it’s decided by which archer kills someone first. Lotto archer-fest.

    And don’t start with “hurr archers are only OP in competitive”, this game shouldn’t be balanced around public games. It’s time to nerf the archers.

    Is Nova actually saying “archers are fine, just get better with shield (wut?) and learn 2 strafe?”. Did he also say “you can react to the projectile speed?”. Oh sure, ill just run towards him then just observe the angle the projectile approaches me at and make appropriate adjustments to my direction and shield positioning.

    I dont even… HHHRHRRRRRRRRRR… BHRHRHRHRHHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. UUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRR… ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH FUUUUUUUUCK WHY U SAY THESE FUCKING THINGS SHIIIIIT FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK ARGHHHHHHHH

    DPS is meaningless to balance discussion here as archers can hit at any range: and they get more and more accurate the closer you get. And Archer DPS is not exactly low…

    Keep headshot damage the same? IDK here - but im pretty sure the top archers get a lot of headshots… (planetus “you see that guy? no head” x40). He doesnt seem to find it so hard, neither does DJ.

    Dont get me wrong, I love a good archer carry like the next guy: when DJ has a great game and hits basically every shot its great fun to go in there and mop up their thoroughly molested melee with 0% effort and come away with a pub KD - but its not fair :P.