Messer Balance



  • Hi guys,
    I just wanted to discuss the knight bastard swords for a moment. More specifically the messer and talk a little bit about the balance surrounding them, what I think is wrong/right, good/bad and what I think should be changed. What this post contains is my opinion on the current state of balance regarding the three knight bastard swords and some factual evidence to back up my claims and opinions.

    218 is the combined damage of the slash, stab and overhead attack values on the longsword.The longsword is a tiny bit slower than the sword of war but slightly easier to drag due to higher release times and 1 combo time
    Longsword windup:
    0.5 slash
    0.525 oh
    0.6 stab

    203 is the combined damage of the slash, stab and overhead attack values on the sword of war. sword of war is the fastest of the bastard swords but lower damage than the longsword. The weapons are very similar so the damage difference for speed seems fair especially considering that the strongest point of the sword of war is the pierce damage based stab.

    Sword of war windup:
    0.5 slash
    0.5 oh
    0.6 stab

    Neither the sword of war or the longsword are able to kill a knight in 2 hits. They both need to hit the head to even guarantee a 3 hit otherwise it will take 4 hits to kill a knight.

    Both the sword of war and the longsword can kill vanguard in 2 hits provided that one of those attacks hits the head which seems fair and balanced.
    The sword of war does not kill any class with 1 hit and the longsword can only just about manage to 1 hit kill and archer to the head on its overhead.

    I don’t really have any problems with the balance between the sword of war or the longsword. I main longsword and despite some people thinking it needs a buff, I still manage to do considerably well with it most games I play and still love it as a weapon. So yeah, no problems here really. The issue I have is as stated, with the messer which I’ll get into now.

    249 is the combined damage of the slash, overhead and stab attack values on the messer. This is a huge damage gain up from the sword of war or the longsword. The messer also has excellent dragging capabilities due to its higher release times and the combo times are minutely quicker on windups so accelerated attacks are just as effective as the longsword or even sword of war within a small amount of millisecond difference.
    I experience this ingame all the time, despite the messer having so much more damage than the other two bastard swords on its overhead, it is able to accelerate the overhead and hit instantly just as fast as the longsword/sword of war when it is supposed to be the slowest bastard sword.

    Messer is also the only sword that can kill a knight in 2 hits with head hits, otherwise it will 3 hit.
    Easymode is guranteed if you play against vanguard with the messer since it can kill a vanguard in 2 hits with both the hits against the torso or even one against the legs……
    The slash and the overhead can both kill a man at arms in 1 hit if hit in the head…

    Messer windup:
    0.525 slash
    0.55 oh
    0.7 stab

    The range on these weapons is very very similar and not really worth discussing.
    Once again based on these values, there is next to NO difference between the windup values on these weapons which have been clearly shown here.
    Comparing the messer to the longsword, there is 25 MILLISECOND DIFFERENCE between these 2 on the overhead attack which is why it is able to instant overhead just as quick.

    wh is with head hit t is 2xtorso hit t+tl is torso + leg hit total score just to show the balance across the spectrum of class killability

    K | V | M | A TS
    messer 2(wh) 2(t+tl) 1(wh) 1(wh) 6
    longsword 3(wh) 2(wh) 2(t+tl) 1(wh) 8
    sow 3(wh) 2(wh) 2(t) 2 9

    Overall based on the values of these weapons and my numerous experiences in game, it seems quite clear that the messer has too many pros and little to no cons. You really don’t sacrifice anything for the huge damage gain you recieve from this weapon and its better dragging/delaying capabilities, aswell as the fact that it can instant/accelerate overhead on par with the longsword and sword of war.

    BALANCE SUGGESTIONS FOR THE MESSER:

    A suggestion my friend also came up with is the following:

    tweak the messers windup speed up and bring the release time down slightly. This will actually make the weapons more different speed wise which in theory will help to balance the weapon out.

    Another option is to nerf the 99 slash damage and/or nerf the overhead attack slightly which again in theory will balance the weapon out.

    Obviously the only way to determine this is to test this.

    Thank you for reading and let me know what you guys think.



  • We have a good ongoing thread for this type of thing. If you want to come up with some numbers for the messer that you think should be tested out put them here:
    http://forums.tornbanner.com/showthread.php/19532-Balancing-out-weapon-in-a-test-mod

    Wulfy is working on a mod, and hopefully we will soon be able to test out our own balance changes.



  • Nerfing messer would unbalance it against more weapons then it would balance against. What about all of the other 2 hit knight weapons. Grand mace, poleaxe, dub axe, maul, or even vannies pole hammer. You’d make messer useless against those weapon. They all already win in hit trades. Sow has superior reach and speed making it balanced with messer as is, give LS a little damage buff and its a much simplier fix then reworking all of the knight weapons to compensate for nerfing messer.



  • Any sword should be a poor choice against armour. A sword is a catch all at the moment, they’re long and fast and do good damage. There’s literally no need to consider another weapon. Heavy blunt trauma should be the order of the day against armour, sword knights should be switching to a secondary mace or expecting a hard time of it when fighting other knights.



  • SoW is already better unless other team has tons of knights lol.



  • Lol, messer doesn’t need a nerf. Swords are as balanced as you can get them. Messer is quick, drags great with great damage, but the stab is useless and range is low. That’s why you don’t see it as often as other swords. And messer is definitely not the anti-vanguard weapon. Sword if war can 2hit kill a vg with stabs to the torso.



  • Indeed SoW is the best choice vs. Vans.
    Messer has slow reach and a weak stab, yup thats right.

    But the Slash 99 Slash/Blunt dmg is nobish. Thats the reason why all fu Knights use this shit. Onehit a Maa with Torso hit + Kick, Onehit a Van with a Headhit. Stupid easy and unbalanced.

    When u go on a Server what can u see? 80% of the Knights use Messer, cuz for ez Kills.
    Second Weapon is norse for simple Anti-Maa Play.
    Or i say it with the Words: lul, hit + kick = kill

    It is one of the broken Weapons and dont need great skill.
    Reduce the Slash dmg on 80 or take the blunt out. Then u have a skill weapon.
    But i know to many here have a weird mind about skill.
    Funny thats all these nerds which can only play with Messer/Norse/hws or brandi. well epic skillz.



  • Messer is fine. Doesn’t need a nerf or buff.



  • I think messer slash damage should be nerfed so it doesnt oneshot maas, its retarded. People spamming and getting lucky with lag and results in a oneshot, so stupid



  • @Memnon:

    Indeed SoW is the best choice vs. Vans.
    Messer has slow reach and a weak stab, yup thats right.

    But the Slash 99 Slash/Blunt dmg is nobish. Thats the reason why all fu Knights use this shit. Onehit a Maa with Torso hit + Kick, Onehit a Van with a Headhit. Stupid easy and unbalanced.

    When u go on a Server what can u see? 80% of the Knights use Messer, cuz for ez Kills.
    Second Weapon is norse for simple Anti-Maa Play.
    Or i say it with the Words: lul, hit + kick = kill

    It is one of the broken Weapons and dont need great skill.
    Reduce the Slash dmg on 80 or take the blunt out. Then u have a skill weapon.
    But i know to many here have a weird mind about skill.
    Funny thats all these nerds which can only play with Messer/Norse/hws or brandi. well epic skillz.

    You lost me at all these nerds….Sorry to be the one to break it to you but we all play a medieval fantasy game with sword fighting and Monty Python style humor… We’re all nerds yourself included.



  • @CRUSHED:

    I think messer slash damage should be nerfed so it doesnt oneshot maas, its retarded. People spamming and getting lucky with lag and results in a oneshot, so stupid

    LOL, I remember doing that to you multiple times on grandmace.



  • Slash is a bit strong maybe, idk.

    Though I wouldn’t go so far as to call it op, messer is just kinda annoying to fight imo.
    It is funny though how many pub knights you see with it doing nothing but lmb spinning in circles. I assume them to just be vanguards going through an identity crisis.



  • I think all the pubbers I see using messer play in 3rd person.



  • one funny fact is the maths or my Information are old.

    A Messer slash is 99dmg +25%= 123,75dmg
    A Vans has a armor Slash/Blunt of 35% i think.

    123,75-43,31= 80,44dmg

    So from the maths is not possible to Onehit a Van. But why I was so repeatedly killed?



  • I main messer and I can’t remember ever one hitting a Vanguard. ^



  • @Memnon:

    Indeed SoW is the best choice vs. Vans.
    Messer has slow reach and a weak stab, yup thats right.

    Messer stab does almost as much damage as longsword stab (only 1 damage less in fact). I wouldn’t call that weak. It’s just a lot slower and thus can be dragged a lot better.

    @Memnon:

    But the Slash 99 Slash/Blunt dmg is nobish. Thats the reason why all fu Knights use this shit. Onehit a Maa with Torso hit + Kick, Onehit a Van with a Headhit. Stupid easy and unbalanced.

    Slash does cut damage, OH does chop damage. No blunt damage here. And it’s actually 95 damage. Besides, slash to torso + kick is not enough to kill an MAA. Messer slash to torso does 81 damage, kicks can do either 3 damage or 5 damage. And you cannot oneshot vanguard any way with messer, only MAAs and archers.

    @Memnon:

    When u go on a Server what can u see? 80% of the Knights use Messer, cuz for ez Kills.
    Second Weapon is norse for simple Anti-Maa Play.
    Or i say it with the Words: lul, hit + kick = kill

    I don’t even see that many messer knights. SoW is way more common. Messer suffers from lack of reach and speed. Unless you are talking about duel servers, I have no idea what kind of meta duel servers have these days.

    @Memnon:

    It is one of the broken Weapons and dont need great skill.
    Reduce the Slash dmg on 80 or take the blunt out. Then u have a skill weapon.

    Once again, messer does not have blunt damage in any attack. If it had blunt, it would be worse against your beloved MAA. You should probably try messer before you offer your balance insights.

    @Memnon:

    But i know to many here have a weird mind about skill.
    Funny thats all these nerds which can only play with Messer/Norse/hws or brandi. well epic skillz.

    You have pretty weird mind about skill when you think that MAA vs MAA is “real way to play”.

    Use this sheet for damage values and types.



  • @CRUSHED:

    I think messer slash damage should be nerfed so it doesnt oneshot maas, its retarded. People spamming and getting lucky with lag and results in a oneshot, so stupid

    Heey Crushed makes sense, call an ambulance he’s probably sick.
    Jokes aside, I agree with Crushed.
    switch messer OH->Slash and Slash->OH damage and it’s fine imo.



  • ok rly wtf.

    The Chiv Wiki is stupid. Once stood as written the Messer has Slash/Blunt/Pierce
    Now stand in this Wiki only Slash/Pierce with this dmg.

    Messer: Slash: 85
    OH: 90
    Stab:60

    and yeah maa vs. maa is fine. just as good as knight against Knight. Just because the scene is a knight scene, does not mean that everything else is shit.



  • It’s popular because it’s ez to use, not because it’s so op. On pubs the drags alone will deal with 90% of opponents, then throw in the fact that it has long ass release times so you can just spin around in a circle going for backswings, and if you miss it’s ok because you can just drag the attack all the way back around and hit them anyway. SoW and gr8sword generally seem to be the weapons of choice for the good sword users, and Messer the choice of the alright ones, because it’s so ez to use and forgiving if your aim isn’t great.



  • @Sir:

    Comparing the messer to the longsword, there is 25 MILLISECOND DIFFERENCE between these 2 on the overhead attack which is why it is able to instant overhead just as quick.

    I have noticed this too. I don’t think a weapon that’s so much more damaging and supposed to be slower (dem drags) should be able to have an accelerated hit like ls does.