The Ultimate feint fix



  • An Idea I came up with (thx marox for helping me with formula) on how to fix feints

    Also some theorycrafting for nohbdy :D

    I really liked Nohbdys idea on how to fix feints with the 800ms delay for double parries, however, it would feel really inconsistent to just suddenly have a 800ms delay after x ms of windup

    Heres the fix for this problem.

    First some explanation of things

    EndFeintWindowTime = 0.15 (Current value in chiv, this determines the feint window ,Windup - EndFeintWindowTime = Feint Window in windup)

    FeintTime=0.2 (current value in chiv, this determines the delay you get for attacking after a feint in ms)

    Now what does this new mechanic do:

    We scale up FeintTime linearly based on the remaining windup MS from your current windup.

    In other words, the feint -> attack delay gets bigger the later you feint. For flash feints your FeintTime will be almost non existing while really late unreadable feints will be able to be double parried so only feinting really late will only work for defensive purposes or cancels.

    Now you could just make set values and say when the EndFeintWindowTime is below 0.15 your FeintTime gets increased to 0.8. Sure that would work, but it would feel inconsistent,random and it wouldnt make sense for new players to learn the timings this way. The distinction between feintable and defensive feintable window would be inconsistent and hard to learn.

    Tooltip example: “The later you feint in your swing, the more momentum you will have, thus resulting in a slower attack.”

    This fix also nerfs the current feint window a bit so you cant make those unreadable late feints anymore, only by 50 ms though so its barely noticable

    Some conditions for this example

    EndFeintWindowTime = 0.00 (For this example we use a full feintable windup)
    RemainingWMS = Remaining windup in MS in current windup
    Windup = Windup time of weapon in ms, duh

    A=FeintTime
    C=FeintTime on slower weapons that have windup above 0.5

    A = 1-(RemainingWMS / Windup), if Windup = <0.5 then C

    C = (Windup-0.5) -> A - C = FeintTime

    ( C is for slower weapons that have a bigger windup then longsword to not have their feints nerfed to shit )

    If RemainingWMS > 500 -> FeintTime = 0.0 (So you dont get negative values from flash feints)

    Example with longsword:

    300 ms feint, unreadable feint

    A= 1-(200/500) = 0,6

    FeintTime = 0,6… aka you can get double parried

    250 ms feint, readable feint

    A= 1-(250/500) = 0,5

    FeintTime = 0,5 … aka you will hit your attack, but the feint is perfectly reactable

    Example with Maul:

    550 MS Feint, pretty late

    A=1-(150/700) = 0.78
    C=0.7-0.5 = 0.2 -> 0.78-0.2 -> FeintTime = ~0.3 -> double parry

    Slow weapons with a big windup like this have more FeintTime naturally from the weapon itself because of the slow windup.

    Obviously numbers can be tweaked if needed, this function also works without a full feint windup. Also FeintTime smoothes the feint animation in a really nice way so they can become more readable. It also mergs well with onehanders

    Thoughts?



  • This is pretty much exactly what I suggested months ago in the Chivalry+ thread, lol.
    Only negative thought I could give to this would be how easy it could turn out to be to late feint someone in an unreadable way only to have your teammate punish him. But then again, that shouldn’t happen very often in practise, and would require some serious team coordination.

    I think this would be the best way to balance out feints in a way that rewards learning a weapon timings perfectly and presents more options in a way that feels consistent for the player, provided you can always see the reverse windup animation. It also presents a new risk to feints, in that the user can be stamina punished by feinting too late. You’d want to feint as early as possible to gain more attack initiative, and you’d want to feint as late as possible to increase your chances of the opponent falling for it. It would probably fun to find and adapt a balance for different situations where the attack cancellation is as most efficient.



  • Not read or going to but its GOOOOOOOOOOOD.



  • I don’t see why we can’t just increase the feint lockout time globally on stabs. (since they’re the only attack that can actually be unreadable right now)



  • Pretty much every good facehug feint is unreadable… or lets say unreactable. Anticipation reading =/= actually not reacting to a feint

    Its pseudo reading. You anticipate and guess and dont parry and it feels like you dont react to it, but thats because you knew it was coming.



  • @CRUSHED:

    Pretty much every good facehug feint is unreadable… or lets say unreactable. Anticipation reading =/= actually not reacting to a feint

    Its pseudo reading. You anticipate and guess and dont parry and it feels like you dont react to it, but thats because you knew it was coming.

    But people call facehug feints all the time. The only reason there is any pseudo-guessing is because of weapons like Gmace or Polehammer with their handle-hits. But those are being fixed in the next patch so even facehug feints will be perfectly readable.



  • @Flippy:

    But people call facehug feints all the time. The only reason there is any pseudo-guessing is because of weapons like Gmace or Polehammer with their handle-hits. But those are being fixed in the next patch so even facehug feints will be perfectly readable.

    Calling =/= not parrying with pure reaction times

    Its virtually impossible, do the math. The moment someone starts playing completely random you will fall for every facehug feint made by a fast 2h. Just because people are playing in predictable pattern and you can anticipate AKA CALL their feints doesnt make them readable.



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  • @CRUSHED:

    An Idea I came up with (thx marox for helping me with formula) on how to fix feints

    Also some theorycrafting for nohbdy :D

    I really liked Nohbdys idea on how to fix feints with the 800ms delay for double parries, however, it would feel really inconsistent to just suddenly have a 800ms delay after x ms of windup

    Heres the fix for this problem.

    First some explanation of things

    EndFeintWindowTime = 0.15 (Current value in chiv, this determines the feint window ,Windup - EndFeintWindowTime = Feint Window in windup)

    FeintTime=0.2 (current value in chiv, this determines the delay you get for attacking after a feint in ms)

    Now what does this new mechanic do:

    We scale up FeintTime linearly based on the remaining windup MS from your current windup.

    In other words, the feint -> attack delay gets bigger the later you feint. For flash feints your FeintTime will be almost non existing while really late unreadable feints will be able to be double parried so only feinting really late will only work for defensive purposes or cancels.

    Now you could just make set values and say when the EndFeintWindowTime is below 0.15 your FeintTime gets increased to 0.8. Sure that would work, but it would feel inconsistent,random and it wouldnt make sense for new players to learn the timings this way. The distinction between feintable and defensive feintable window would be inconsistent and hard to learn.

    Tooltip example: “The later you feint in your swing, the more momentum you will have, thus resulting in a slower attack.”

    This fix also nerfs the current feint window a bit so you cant make those unreadable late feints anymore, only by 50 ms though so its barely noticable

    Some conditions for this example

    EndFeintWindowTime = 0.00 (For this example we use a full feintable windup)
    RemainingWMS = Remaining windup in MS in current windup
    Windup = Windup time of weapon in ms, duh

    A=FeintTime
    C=FeintTime on slower weapons that have windup above 0.5

    A = 1-(RemainingWMS / Windup), if Windup = <0.5 then C

    C = (Windup-0.5) -> A - C = FeintTime

    ( C is for slower weapons that have a bigger windup then longsword to not have their feints nerfed to shit )

    If RemainingWMS > 500 -> FeintTime = 0.0 (So you dont get negative values from flash feints)

    Example with longsword:

    300 ms feint, unreadable feint

    A= 1-(200/500) = 0,6

    FeintTime = 0,6… aka you can get double parried

    250 ms feint, readable feint

    A= 1-(250/500) = 0,5

    FeintTime = 0,5 … aka you will hit your attack, but the feint is perfectly reactable

    Example with Maul:

    550 MS Feint, pretty late

    A=1-(150/700) = 0.78
    C=0.7-0.5 = 0.2 -> 0.78-0.2 -> FeintTime = ~0.3 -> double parry

    Slow weapons with a big windup like this have more FeintTime naturally from the weapon itself because of the slow windup.

    Obviously numbers can be tweaked if needed, this function also works without a full feint windup. Also FeintTime smoothes the feint animation in a really nice way so they can become more readable. It also mergs well with onehanders

    Thoughts?

    Sounds good Crushed. As with all changes the only real way to know what effect it would have is to test it. Perhaps Wulfy could make a mod for that maybe. The idea in general sounds alright though. If parry was more consistent, especially against faster weapons like the norse sword I think feints would be less of a problem. Most norse sword attacks are fast enough to hit before my parry is up or hit through my parry (which is usually the case) which is why I dislike feints so much. And obviously you know how bad stab feints are at face hug range. I have doubts that the fix you’ve suggested would fix these two but only 1 way to find out.



  • @CRUSHED:

    Calling =/= not parrying with pure reaction times

    Its virtually impossible, do the math. The moment someone starts playing completely random you will fall for every facehug feint made by a fast 2h. Just because people are playing in predictable pattern and you can anticipate AKA CALL their feints doesnt make them readable.

    Seriously anyone who claims this can play against me and see how you wont read shit.

    But the only reason you can’t call 2 handers with reaction times right now is because of the handle hits. You’re afraid of getting smacked straight outta their release so you parry to early. But with the new patch since there’s no longer handle hits, you can wait much longer. Like a whole 1/4 of a second longer.



  • @Sir:

    Sounds good Crushed. As with all changes the only real way to know what effect it would have is to test it. Perhaps Wulfy could make a mod for that maybe. The idea in general sounds alright though. If parry was more consistent, especially against faster weapons like the norse sword I think feints would be less of a problem. Most norse sword attacks are fast enough to hit before my parry is up or hit through my parry (which is usually the case) which is why I dislike feints so much. And obviously you know how bad stab feints are at face hug range. I have doubts that the fix you’ve suggested would fix these two but only 1 way to find out.

    Thanks, regarding stab feints

    With the current feintable window and lets say you would do a last ms feint with a stab, with this new mechanic you would get 700ms delay before you can attack again so you would get double parried

    You would have to feint 100ms earlier with stab then right now to not get double parried, which is a perfectly readable feint.

    @Flippy:

    But the only reason you can’t call 2 handers with reaction times right now is because of the handle hits. You’re afraid of getting smacked straight outta their release so you parry to early. But with the new patch since there’s no longer handle hits, you can wait much longer. Like a whole 1/4 of a second longer.

    I will have to see this myself first ingame, AFAIK the handle hit fix doesnt change anything for swords i think, aka the most problematic feints



  • I would gladly test it.



  • Tooltip example: “The later you feint in your swing, the more momentum you will have, thus resulting in a slower attack.”

    Don’t know if i like this, you have really slow attacks, with an already slow weapon, and it gets you nowhere. If anyone needs to feint, its people with slow weapons.
    What if it just used more stamina?



  • @chivalryinterested:

    Don’t know if i like this, you have really slow attacks, with an already slow weapon, and it gets you nowhere. If anyone needs to feint, its people with slow weapons.
    What if it just used more stamina?

    Theres a specific function in the formula that helps slow weapons keep their feints effective, it can still be fine tuned to better values if slow weapons feint turn out too weak with this mechanic



  • Sometime I call facehug feints and my reaction time is 256 (from merica) but I think calling them in the games current state is a result of like subconsciously picking up on patterns or something.



  • @CRUSHED:

    Thanks, regarding stab feints

    With the current feintable window and lets say you would do a last ms feint with a stab, with this new mechanic you would get 700ms delay before you can attack again so you would get double parried

    You would have to feint 100ms earlier with stab then right now to not get double parried, which is a perfectly readable feint.

    I will have to see this myself first ingame, AFAIK the handle hit fix doesnt change anything for swords i think, aka the most problematic feints

    I think this is a really interesting idea and I’d like to see Torn Banner release a beta app for something like this. I’d quite happily test it.



  • Would work I think. Makes for higher skill ceiling.
    Honestly anyone saying they are reading sword overhead feints close up are just guessing.



  • Sounds like a good idea to me. Something similar had occurred to me a few days ago during the previous thread, but this is a thorough design you put forward. I would prefer a logical solution like this over the two-stage feint system any day.

    Also, does not the reverse parry tracer in the beta not help mitigate some of the problems with swords and insta-hits?



  • I’m going to have to oppose this idea. Feinting is in the game for a reason, and this change will severely limit its offensive potential, to near nothing in my opinion. Also, feints from two handers, even at face hug range, are readable. It’s difficult and requires composure, but it can be done quite consistently.

    This change would make all feints easily readable, thus lowering the skill gap. If you wanted to do a true feint after this change, it would just be double parried, leaving you at a disadvantage with less stamina. If you did a shorter feint, any skilled player would just not parry, or attack you when they reacted to the feint. This would force you to feint to parry, making you lose stamina. And if you didn’t react in time to their impromptu attack, you would take damage.

    I firmly believe that the two most skillful things in this game are mastering the feint game. i.e. knowing when to feint aggressively and then predicting/reading feints, and mastering feint to parry for defense. This change would lower the skill required to master the feint game drastically. It would also make feinting completely useless in my opinion, besides feinting to parry. Against any somewhat skilled opponent, feinting would just be opening yourself to damage or stamina loss, as well as giving them the advantage if they parry you.

    In the current meta feinting is powerful but balanced. It is a risk/reward mechanic. Many players can predict, read and punish feints. That is part of the high skill ceiling of Chivalry. It takes experience to master the mechanic, which is what separates a player with 700 hours from a player with 1,500. The base mechanics such as timing, directional parrying and swing manipulation can be mastered somewhat quickly. Feints and feint to parry are in the game to make the combat flow better and increase the skill required to compete with the best. Taking away the main thing that keeps this game unique and more difficult than others is not a good idea at all in my opinion.



  • I’m pretty sure it’s not about making feints easier to read. It’s about creating a smooth way to allow for more control in a consistent manner whilst having feints readable. The feint cooldown would scale with the time before cancellation times a constant value that could vary between weapons. It shouldn’t be impossible to find values that allow for some devious, hard to read feints but also balances the maneuver out in the suggested way.

    Personally, I think TBS should consider this concept while working on the sequel. It might be too late to implement such a drastic change at this point. Especially considering it would take some serious effort to get right.