Shields need a fix



  • Completely remove attack speed bonus. This just causes already fast weapons to be unblockably fast. The shield doesn’t need an offensive advantage, but a defensive one.

    Shorten/remove drop times so that you can attack right after dropping your shield/blocking an enemy. This will make it much less clunky and still give the shield offensive potential without making attacks in general faster.

    At the moment, shields make some weapons extremely fast to an excessive point. Shields should have some degree of offensive potential, but the current attack speed bonus just breaks the balance of certain weapons. They need a substantial defensive advantage without also having a brokenly fast weapon.

    If you don’t believe me, go hatchet-shield MAA and spam lookdown overheads. Go norse-buckler. Go HWS-shield. Go norse-shield knight lookdown overheads. It’s quite ridiculous.

    I’d like to see this put in the official beta.

    (this is a repost but in the correct subforum this time)



  • not to mention the recovery time is slightly lowered

    faster weapon + lower recovery + immense blocking potential in group fights (as long as you’re not all alone)



  • I think it’s maybe necessary for the slower weapons, but HWS, norse sword and hatchet do become a problem. I’d rather see it changed for just those first rather than a blanket reduction across all shield using weapons.

    I also don’t think it needs a bonus to compensate. If something is OP you don’t take away and give back, you just take away.



  • bullshit ass shields man, bullshit ass shields



  • I support this.
    _
    Only under that condition ofc_
    : that they remove the lockouts. ATM the faster releases kind of compensate for the clunkiness and inability to act quickly after blocks. If you removed the bugged releases and did nothing else, shields would be heavily gimped.

    The bug is dumb but… it kinda balances the shield out - weirdly. I’d rather have no lockouts and regular releases though: yknow - actually balanced legit, rather than accidentally half-balanced because of a bug. I’d also like to actually be able to drag with the warhammer like you can without a shield. Fucking annoys me how with a shield you just cant drag it effectively cus the release is so fast.

    But overall there is nothing OP about shields. If there was then everyone would use them - just like everyone uses greatsword. Its balanced. You cant just pick up shield and wreck. Sure, you can pick it up and just survive: but to actually get stuff done with it? Not ezmode.

    Edit: Though i’m gunna concede that hws and norse with the extra speed on release is pretty wack. Its only a real problem with those two: but they’re considered wack on their own already by some so id disagree that the “shield bug” is whats making that problem.



  • @Triumphant:

    I support this.

    Only under that condition ofc: that they remove the lockouts. ATM the faster releases kind of compensate for the clunkiness and inability to act quickly after blocks. If you removed the bugged releases and did nothing else, shields would be heavily gimped.

    The bug is dumb but… it kinda balances the shield out - weirdly. I’d rather have no lockouts and regular releases though: yknow - actually balanced legit, rather than accidentally half-balanced because of a bug. I’d also like to actually be able to drag with the warhammer like you can without a shield. Fucking annoys me how with a shield you just cant drag it effectively cus the release is so fast.

    But overall there is nothing OP about shields. If there was then everyone would use them - just like everyone uses greatsword. Its balanced. You cant just pick up shield and wreck. Sure, you can pick it up and just survive: but to actually get stuff done with it? Not ezmode.

    Edit: Though i’m gunna concede that hws and norse with the extra speed on release is pretty wack. Its only a real problem with those two: but they’re considered wack on their own already by some so id disagree that the “shield bug” is whats making that problem.

    Did you…read the OP? I don’t want to just take away the bonus, I also want to shorten the drop time (is that what your “lockout” is?) to make it still viable.

    Also, just because not everyone uses it doesn’t mean that it isn’t unbalanced. That’s the ad populum fallacy. Currently, norse-kite counters MAA, Knight, Vanguard, and has an advantage against archers as well. The superfast lookdown overhead is brokenly fast, causing extreme difficulty from all classes to parry, the overhead can also be used against MAA for easy hit trades, it two shots MAA, vanguards can’t do anything if the shield can block and close distance, shields are immune to feints so it’s easier to close distance anyway, immunity to feints(extreme advantage), etc. It’s quite the duel setup, but it still has a lot of potential in teamfights.

    I’m thinking about teamfights AND duels, by the way. The main disadvantage to norse-kite is the range disadvantage. This definitely combines with the defensive nature of the shield to make it compliment a defensive composition, but the stupid thing is that it still does fine in a lot of situations because of the attack speed bonus and is able to basically 1v1 each person, killing them fast and moving to the next guy. Also, the combo times are very manageable, allowing for target switching even though it has short range. Of course, target switching is limited, but it is still very possible.

    The main class that I know can compete is a HWS MAA, because the hws without shield is still sort of fast enough to interrupt the norse after the kite is used to block. This is due to drop time being too long. It IS silly however that only the hws can do this and that it is one of the only weaknesses shields have. The norse-kite can still trade very easily if the HWS is not in facehug range and accelerating the stab. The HWS also has to hit 3-4 times, instead of the norse-kite’s 2-3. The shield guy has to really be going for those trades, too. Also, for the maa, side dodging is really risky because it adds a delay to the time you can attack, and the shield’s comboparry equivalent is basically recovery parry from previous patches that allows it to block the dodge attack relatively easily. If the maa wants to dodge, the trade becomes possible for the norse kite as well. The only reasons that the HWS MAA has a better chance than other classes is because the MAA has resistance to feints, and the HWS attack speed can exploit the slow drop time of the shield. The huge disadvantage it has, however, is the low health and high chance for trading if the HWS is not completely exploited to it’s fullest. The norse kite has an easier time than the MAA in the fight in my opinion. Keep in mind this scenario is a duel situation as well.

    BUT. I also have a scenario for teamfights where the norse-kite STILL has an easier time to kill an maa. Let’s imagine a 2v2 for simplicity. The knight and his teammate are on the MAA’s teammate. The MAA’s teammate has not reached contact with both yet, but both enemies are sprinting and winding up. The MAA MUST get in close and hit the norse-kite in the back. However, the norse kite has an extremely fast swing and will likely have already swung and connected. The MAA has the chance to hit the norse kite in the back, but due to the norse’s broken speed, it trades with the maa upon turn around. The maa is stuck in a fight with the shield. The shield is immune to feints, so the maa has to connect with the shield or run, allowing the shield knight to attempt another trade and lock the MAA down, or target switch back to the MAA’s teammate. The maa dies in two hits, so the norse-kite’s teammate has to be occupied as well by the MAA’s teammate in order to keep the MAA alive. The MAA’s team is at a disadvantage at this point because the MAA is stuck and can die in one hit, while his teammate has likely taken a beating as well. The easiest compos to beat that contains norse-kite is norse-kite and maa, because the MAA has low health. The strategy is to kill the norse-kite’s teammate as fast as possible and then 2v1 the shield, but if the shield knight’s teammate isn’t half stupid the knight can just keep one/two people locked down at the same time while the teammate doesn’t engage. At this point you could 2v1 the shield, but the shield is immune to feints, can block multiple opponents easily, and the MAA teammate could easily run in and punish. This makes it very easy for the norse-kite’s teammate.

    Sigh, I know I think a lot. But the point is, the shield knight’s broken offensive capabilities with weapons like the norse is crippling to other players, and it’s defensive capabilities aren’t lacking at all. Kicks can even be read very consistently, because for some reason even if your shield is still up, if you let go of block as soon as you are kicked it doesn’t do anything. EVEN if the shield still appears to be up. There is no advantageous weapon counter to the norse-kite, while the norse-kite counters MAA and is formidable against every single other class as well. This is quite unbalanced.

    Also, I disagree… warhammer is perfectly draggable with a shield… and the hws and norse are perfectly fine without shields (the attack speed bonus makes a pretty significant difference). They definitely are difficult to parry without the attack speed bonus but it is actually much more manageable than norse-kite/hws-kite. At least you can feint the non-shield variant. It’s wack for less experienced players who have not mastered blocking quite yet, but much less wack for the competitive ones.



  • I did read your OP - i agreed with it: the bug should be removed, and the length of “downtime” between making a successful block w/ shield, and then being able to attack, should be reduced to compensate.

    If shields were one of the most effective, overpowered things you could put into your team then they would be a big part of the competitive meta, period. As it stands - you see them occasionally utilised at best. Thats all the evidence you need for shield balance: its fine, and not in the slightest bit “OP”.

    In scrims, you cant just walk up to competitive standard players and vanilla attack with norse to land hits. If you can do that in NA then… lol. Shield bugged attacks are probably about 5% harder to block compared to standard non-shield one handers, and to good players that makes little difference. Noobs in pubs get wrecked by shield bugged attacks just as they do non-bugged one handers.

    In scrims I flank heavily and use feints to get my hits - when i get space. I cant rely on feints too hard as my attacks are weak and I need to manage my stamina extremely well. Comp standard players also dont easily open themselves up to interruption during combos/attacks: due to sensible choices on when to do so, and good footwork.

    Norse/hws in duels is very powerful vs vans and knights but in scrims? When you cant just close down the range at your leisure, and have to worry about his experienced, skilful teammates flanking you and target switching into you with longer, more powerful weapons? Suddenly it all gets a lot harder my son.

    Also, i have no idea where you got this mad idea that norse is effective vs MAAs. Yeah, maybe the ones that didnt find the dodge button and also are bad enough to allow you to hit trade them. You can choose worse weapons vs MAA but… no, its bad vs MAA. With shield - the faster release due to the bug actually obviously reduces its reach (plus movement) even more. Its too short to be especially effective against them, broadsword is better, and 1h longsword is much better still.

    Warhammer can be dragged with shield yeah, i do it to its limit to try and squeeze the best out of it, but it only really works against noobs who panic parry the instant they see you twitch. Its much better without the shield for dragging - theres not even an argument for that. Just take warhammer and do OHs with shield then without. The difference is huge.



  • I find that shield up time is the single biggest obstacle with shields. I have died countless times from an arrow/jav/projectile after dealing with someone in front of me and turning to block the obvious arrow/projectile attack raising the shield but due to that little bit of extra lag + shield up time I get hit, when on my screen it wasn’t a problem. If shield up time is reduced substantially this problem wouldn’t happen. Everything else about shields is fine IMO.



  • @Toll:

    and turning to block the obvious arrow/projectile attack raising the shield but due to that little bit of extra lag + shield up time I get hit, when on my screen it wasn’t a problem.

    Thats called client sided hit detection…



  • Client side hit detection is balls because it allows all sorts of shit to happen. My client says yup, detected block, send it to server, server sends it to my enemy, who on his screen hit me 200ms ago. Then rages cause I didn’t die.

    Not to mention the cheating that be done when it’s done client side.

    Server side hit detection all the way please, client prediction is somewhat OK but certainly should never be authoritative. So, that leaves the problem of shield up time + lag = bad times. Get rid of shield up time.



  • I’m thinking about teamfights AND duels,

    But duels are completely inbalanced and loadout based and shouldn’t be taken into account when balancing anything in a team-based game. You don’t balance a MOBA or FPS or any team-based game for 1v1. TO is all that matters.



  • @Flippy:

    But duels are completely inbalanced and loadout based and shouldn’t be taken into account when balancing anything in a team-based game. You don’t balance a MOBA or FPS or any team-based game for 1v1. TO is all that matters.

    buff Crystal Maiden so I can kill Invoker with her kthx



  • @Flippy:

    But duels are completely inbalanced and loadout based and shouldn’t be taken into account when balancing anything in a team-based game. You don’t balance a MOBA or FPS or any team-based game for 1v1. TO is all that matters.

    1 v 1 AND TO matters since TO’s consist of very short 1 v 1’s prease.



  • Very short 1v1’s with a host of other inputs like almost as many 2v1’s. There are also objectives and different styles of play to achieve these objectives rather than just killing the other person.



  • Yes, shields need to be ripped of ALL their stupid cooldowns, and have the whole shield system reassessed. there needs to be a good reason to use a shield. Right now it completely gimps your defensive abilities in melee combat as its extremely easy to get around a shield or feint-kick it down for a free hit, not to mention that while blocking your visibility is impaired immensely. Blocking with a shield could reduce the amount of knockback you recieve by 50%, along with removing the bug that makes attacks faster, and reducing the lockout after you bring your shield down before you can attack - humans have 2 arms that are independent of eachother for christs sake, why cant i charge up an overhead right when im letting my shield down?

    Needs to be a reason to use shields instead of some stupid gimmick that makes your attacks slightly faster, needs to work better, etc etc



  • @Karasu:

    buff Crystal Maiden so I can kill Invoker with her kthx

    I can kill anyone anytime with CM. carry CM ftw!

    @Psyfon:

    Yes, shields need to be ripped of ALL their stupid cooldowns, and have the whole shield system reassessed. there needs to be a good reason to use a shield. Right now it completely gimps your defensive abilities in melee combat as its extremely easy to get around a shield or feint-kick it down for a free hit, not to mention that while blocking your visibility is impaired immensely. Blocking with a shield could reduce the amount of knockback you recieve by 50%, along with removing the bug that makes attacks faster, and reducing the lockout after you bring your shield down before you can attack - humans have 2 arms that are independent of eachother for christs sake, why cant i charge up an overhead right when im letting my shield down?

    Needs to be a reason to use shields instead of some stupid gimmick that makes your attacks slightly faster, needs to work better, etc etc

    Let’s not get any wild ideas. I am strongly against shield passively protecting against melee attacks or anything similar. With the wonky hitboxes MW got it would lead to so many bullshit situations. Shields need only a minor buff, unless we want to see them nerfed right after. Reducing the lockdown times is very tempting but I’d possibly go as far as to rebalance the stamina drain to be comparable with parrying without a shield.

    The fact that if you got the skill you are better off without shield makes sense tbh. Shield is supposed to make defending from attacks easier but if you can do well without it then you can man up and get more freedom and speed and free hand and stuff. I won’t be mad if shields stay as they are.



  • Actually, shield isn’t a bad clutch weapon either XD. I’ve seen john win many 2v1 situations with norse + kite when we all know that should never be the case. Shields should be support weapons but they’re really great all rounders lately. Only downside is the reach.



  • 100000000000000000000000000000% Agree and not just because dueling john sucks :L. Shields have INSANE defensive potential which is fine, but they also have absurd offensive potential as well.It excels in every environment and has 0 downsides but range. I agree it has a certain skill level you need to get to and can be very hard at first, but once you get decent with it, it’s absurdly OP. Just lesen the offensive abilities in terms of speed and lessen the block range of the shield so it doesn’t go over the model. I’ve literally scene my tracers go behind the shield, while it still being able to parry. Nerfing parry/block should go for the entire game as well, ass parries are ridiculous but that’s another post for another time.



  • @Psyfon:

    Yes, shields need to be ripped of ALL their stupid cooldowns, and have the whole shield system reassessed. there needs to be a good reason to use a shield. Right now it completely gimps your defensive abilities in melee combat as its extremely easy to get around a shield or feint-kick it down for a free hit, not to mention that while blocking your visibility is impaired immensely. Blocking with a shield could reduce the amount of knockback you recieve by 50%, along with removing the bug that makes attacks faster, and reducing the lockout after you bring your shield down before you can attack - humans have 2 arms that are independent of eachother for christs sake, why cant i charge up an overhead right when im letting my shield down?

    Needs to be a reason to use shields instead of some stupid gimmick that makes your attacks slightly faster, needs to work better, etc etc

    I really hope this post was sarcastic but if it was legit, you’re just not good, because if you’re decent with a sword and shield you understand how absurd it can be. Plus, feint kicks are very easy to read, shields are literally the onlY way you can read feints in this game and be feint proof. The blocking range is absurd and block crouch literally makes you unhittable if you’re decent. 2 ways to balance this = stamina nerf which I really don’t like but would nerf shields quite a bit. And making blocks match the model and ending this bug where the shield can still block because the shield stays behind when it moves bullshit. No bonus speed and boom it’s balanced and still really powerful in a competitive environment. (definitely fix the block radius, but either nerf stamina or speed, just pick one preferably speed, you know fuck the stamina nerf buff it for all I care but get rid of Godly speed)



  • Please don’t use the “if no one uses it, it must be fine” remark, people don’t use the shield because it has a very deep learning curve especially with pubbers who only know how to drag, and have 0 footwork and defensive abilities. Shields are very commonly used in the competitive scene, I don’t think I’ve went through 2 scrims in a row without there being a norse + shield combo within it. Sometimes teams double up and have 2 shield + norse. It has insane offensive abilities, what are you talking about? I’ve seen john pull off 1v2’s several times within a scrim, just because it’s hard does not make it balanced.