Balance Discussion


  • Developer

    In order to reduce forum clutter, please post all items relevant to game balance in this topic! Moderators please merge topics posted elsewhere here, Thank you!



  • Fists were changed in the latest hotfix. As for the other 4 posts, I deleted them because they were completely off topic and contained no balance discussion whatsoever. I’ll be strictly moderating this topic and removing general/off-topic discussion and if you have balance concerns about a particular class or weapon, please try and back them up with some facts if you can and if you want to post any videos alongside your points, you can.



  • Balance issues:

    Falchion: Best one hand weapon in the game which means why take any other one? (accept nord sword to stab with) Yes im gonna say it… OP!

    Polearms/Twohand swords: The stab hits so fast theres no need to use another attack most of the time. It reminds me of the 360 attack from the AoC flail.

    Maa dodge: Can we get a cool down of how often they can use it? i realise it uses a bit of stam but holy hell it feels like your playing Dragonball Z

    Fists: ZOMAEHGG not gonna even comment on this issue.

    Grandmace: Looks badass doesnt seem to work?? i mean really who uses it? Maybe it needs a speed increase?

    Poleaxe: Awesome weapon but the model doesnt tie up to its reach. Maybe make the weapon trace longer to match the model?

    Jav: reload/get ready to fight time is insanely long but that class seems very broken so wont comment on the rest.

    Arrow types: As you guys are already aware no difference between arrow types against Maa. Infact why would you ever use Broadhead, you get less of them and only good for archers.

    Thats all i have for now



  • Before the Fisticuffs update, Javelins were in a good spot. I saw people wreck with it, but it was hard to do. Now, the reload speed (period of inaction after throwing a javelin) seems to have been lengthened substantially; javelins are now unnecessarily difficult to make use of, and their reward (given having to be an archer) doesn’t seem to outweigh their cons.

    Maybe this is a bug, either that the reload speed was never nearly as long as it should’ve been, or that the reload animation is too drawn out right now. The biggest problem with it is that the current reload speed prevents you from doing anything for at least a few seconds.



  • Make archers able to draw their sword faster. right know changing weapons sometimes take forever. If you just fire of a shot and then try to change quickly the changing just fucks up and it takes forever to draw it.



  • the flachion is not the problem it has pretty good spread damage wise vs armored and non armored the real problem is the warhammer its 1h and 2shots everything which is to good



  • also interested in blocking with dagger issue
    does it still take a litle amount of stamina to block 2handed weapons?



  • @OrdeaL:

    Balance issues:
    Polearms/Twohand swords: The stab hits so fast theres no need to use another attack most of the time. It reminds me of the 360 attack from the AoC flail.

    I have noticed by now that against more experienced players the stab just won’t work on its own. It is great however for taking care of new players really quickly but it is supposed to be the faster attack so I don’t feel the speed should be changed. Other attacks are for more damage, wider range or combo effects. I haven’t tested lately if it’s still unblock-able at face-hugging range but in my opinion it should still be changed so that it hardly does damage or bounces when face-hugging. That way it won’t be the supreme attack anymore.

    Grandmace: Looks badass doesnt seem to work?? i mean really who uses it? Maybe it needs a speed increase?

    I use it every once in a while and tend to get on top of the scoreboard when I do. Don’t see a problem with it really.

    Tactical Objectives: I think there should be taken a closer look at the balance between the defending and attacking side in TO maps. For instance on the map with the royal families I’ve hardly ever seen the defending side win during the last stage. Pushing the cart is easy for the attackers while it occasionally fails against a well-organized team, and I guess that is okay. But after that and the opening of the gate it’s also very easy for the attacking side to charge at the caves and kill the families. The wooden bars can be destroyed with a few kamikaze attacks and then all you need is one guy to come in and spam away. Not to mention the effect of the catapult, and there’s always one guy who knows how to use it because it’s so easy to master. One way to solve it could be to give the family members a slight HP increase (making it two hits to kill them with most weapons) and as soon as a family gets attacked, the entire defending team gets a signal that it is under attack. That will give more incentive for the defending team to work together to defend a family.

    I’m not sure about the other maps, the one with the king and the peasants seems to do great as all objectives are quite hard for both teams to obtain. I’ve seen both sides win a number of times in the other maps as well so the balance there is probably good too.

    Sorry that I don’t have any videos to prove my points, if you want more evidence for something please tell me.

    Overall though I’m very much impressed by the balance in Chivalry as I can only imagine how hard it is to make a new game with an original fighting style. And it’s really been nailed so far.



  • Well, I’m a big fan of the Halberd… and I must say I get absolutely wrecked when I play without thinking about positioning, and using the GREAT REACH of it to my advantage.

    Here I even put together a video about it. Great game, great weapon. Always been a fan of Polearms/Axes

    WH3cvHynPWY



  • I’m going to state my opinion on current balance class by class, starting with the archer.

    I dislike archers. A lot of people dislike archers - mainly AoC players who are used to archery being purely support and rather weak in general. I find archery to be too easy and too rewarding considering one of the melee classes has no defense against them and the other two are forced to use a shield - the MaA shield being rather ineffective anyway due to size. I don’t think they’re in a good place and I foresee them being disabled in a lot of servers if nothing changes.

    Weapons:

    Warbow > Longbow > Shortbow

    The longbow has decent all-around balance in regards to archer weapons. It can be a good anti-archer tool with the ability to one shot enemy archers with a headshot using bodkins, while still being good against melee too because of its relatively good damage and range. I think it’s in a pretty good spot as it is other than issues with archers overall.

    I love the shortbow’s mobility, it lets you stay in close and continue to create range by backpeddaling while firing. That said, I don’t think it fires fast enough for how low the damage is, not to mention the range - even with bodkins you have to stick a knight something like 4 times in the head - up to 6 to the body - and after one or two shots he’ll be on you. Since the cudgel nerf, archer backups aren’t strong enough for the shortbow to be used as a skirmish weapon. Increasing its fire rate and swap speed would help alleviate some of its shortcomings and make it more distinct from the longbow.

    The warbow is in my opinion substantially stronger than the other bows. Range is a very powerful thing, and it gets a huge damage increase on top of it. It just doesn’t feel like the fire rate is slow enough for it to be as strong as it is. You can one shot anything but a knight with a headshot from the warbow - if you use broadheads archers die to a single body hit, and if broadheads are ever put on par with bodkins that will be true of MaA too I assume. But I don’t think reducing the warbow’s damage makes sense - it would just make it inferior to the longbow. At the same time, reducing its rate of fire would make it just a crossbow with long fire times instead of a reload, and no pavise. I would say rather than a direct nerf, the warbow should get a tweak to be more of a “sniper” type weapon; rather than a damage advantage over the longbow, just significantly better range and projectile speed with similar damage, in addition to the slower fire rate.

    Crossbow > Light Crossbow > Heavy Crossbow

    I dislike the crossbows the most out of all the archer weapons, both using them and playing against them (I actually enjoy using the javelins and bows, not so much playing against them) - this is due to their one shot, one kill nature. I don’t believe any ranged weapons should kill any melee class in one hit without a headshot, but I also doubt that’ll change. So anyway,

    Basic crossbow is definitely the best from what I’ve seen. It can take out 3/4 of the classes with a body hit and doesn’t take very long to reload. I can see no reason not to use it given the other options.

    The light crossbow is bad. The difference between the crossbow and the light crossbow doesn’t feel at all like the difference between the longbow and the shortbow - they don’t feel at all like different weapons, the light crossbow just feels completely inferior. It reloads fast, yeah, but the damage drop prevents you from killing even an archer with a body hit, which is what the crossbow is all about. Normally I would say “Alright, fast weapon that can’t kill with body hits - that’s great, encourages headshots, good weapon for skilled players” - but no, because the light crossbow also has drastically less range, so headshots are harder to achieve too.

    The heavy crossbow is in the exact same boat as the light, but for the opposite reasons - the drastically reduced speed is in no way worth the tiny damage increase. If you could kill knights with a single body hit the heavy crossbow would be the god of ranged weapons - but you can’t, so it isn’t. I assume you can kill knights with one headshot which you cannot with the regular crossbow. That’s still not enough for how slow it is. Slow weapons focused on headshotting knights are high risk for not so high reward when you could just kill anyone else easier with a body hit on a faster weapon. Because the light crossbow at least has a notable advantage over the crossbow - the speed - I think it has more purpose than the heavy. Right now the heavy crossbow might as well not be in the game.

    Javelin > Heavy Javelin > Small Spear

    I strongly dislike javelins in Chivalry compared to AoC. The melee is weak and not very versatile; buckler shields are worse than no shield at all (but that’s more of a general issue than javelin specific); throw javelins is slow and clunky; there are far more things that kill you in one hit, making your odds of winning in melee even less favorable. As a skirmisher class in AoC, the javelineer was competent in melee and at a distance - you couldn’t snipe like an archer, but you could throw javelins at fleeing enemies or before an engagement. You couldn’t take on multiple enemies like dedicated melee classes, but you could hold your own in skirmishes, providing support in small fights and being one of the better duelist classes (aside from MaA/sergeant). In Chiv, javelin just feels like an archer with a shield and very little ammo, especially since the huge hit to speed on reloading (which as I understand it was a bug fix - funnily enough everyone thought the times when you would draw a javelin slowly was the bug, not the times when you drew one quickly).

    Much the same as the crossbows, the default Javelin just seems all-around better. It has decent melee speed and damage, and very nice ranged damage with decent speed (for a javelin). Again unlike bows, this balance of speed and damage is just an advantage - the other javelins don’t feel specialized, just inferior.

    The short spear’s damage is pitiful for its speed. It also doesn’t feel like it has much longer range when thrown than the normal javs. Short spears are actually my favorite javelins to use, because they currently feel like the least clunky; but they’re still ineffective compared to the default, both in melee and when thrown.

    The heavy javelin is actually better in melee than the default javelin - I don’t find the slight speed disadvantage to be as noticeable as the increased damage and range, which makes head poking vanguards and knights much easier to accomplish, taking one less hit to kill either one of them I believe. That said, the current state of a thrown heavy javelin is extremely frustrating. They feel far clunkier and slower than the default jav, and like the heavy cross vs. default cross I have yet to notice getting a kill with a thrown heavy jav that I wouldn’t have gotten with the default. And of course you also have less ammo.

    Cudgel > Short Sword > Thrusting Dagger > Broad Dagger > Saber > Hunting Knife

    I’m not going to write out a paragraph for each Archer melee weapon; I’ll just state that I find the shortsword and thrusting dagger to be in a good place balance-wise, the cudgel to be still a little too strong, and the hunting dagger and saber to be completely worthless. This goes for all classes who have these weapons, not just the archer. The broad dagger is okay, but the trade off of less stabbing power for more slashing power is not a good one - this is the same idea that makes the shorty and thrust dagger much better than the saber and hunting knife. The cudgel is unique in being the only weapon an archer can use which does blunt damage (save for the jav shield bash), which on top of its high damage and speed makes it all around better because you’ll dispatch knights and vanguards much quicker without and noticeable loss against MaA and archers.

    Etc.

    Backstab is an interesting special which I’m liking more and more. It makes supporting with the javelins or short bow far more fun when you get to run in and melee someone who turns their back on you to fight a teammate, doing considerable damage and taking them by surprise. It’s very fitting as well to the theme of archers, which seems to be “god damn annoying little bastards”.

    Pavise shields aren’t very good cover when planted. Their best use is for the passive block. Personally I think the passive block should be removed from the pavise altogether, because it definitely isn’t being used for its intended function, and it makes crossbows very annoying to play against as a bow archer because the only brief window you have to shoot them is when they’re shooting at you - there’s no penalty for reloading in the open as long as you turn around.

    Broadheads vs. Bodkins - right now bodkins are obviously better in all cases except the niche warbow + broadhead counter-archer. I’ve said before I don’t like the idea of different damage projectiles against different classes. It’s power without gameplay - an inherent advantage that you don’t have to do anything for except pick the right arrow. Bodkins should provide a speed/range advantage while broadheads deal more damage IMO.



  • Man at Arms - Dodge needs to use stamina.



  • @Swords:

    Man at Arms - Dodge needs to use stamina.

    It does…



  • Well, it does not use enough then to hinder the MAA at dodging and have enough to go berserk. Sorry but its OP, but like someone said, I just need more practice. Yet its speed is just stupidly overpowered.

    A Dodge is just that, a dodge move, 3 or so dodges should eat up at least half the stamina of a MaA. But, I dont know the numbers. So I dont know.

    The thing is a MaA should not be abusing the dodge in a fight, it should be an “evasive maneuver”, not a way to “hop around unhindered and then go berserk”.

    Another thing you can do, since it is a skill based game, do away with “One Button Dodge”, thought we were using skill? Yet, your gonna allow two forms of dodge? If thats the case, I want Autoaim, or Aim assist. So that my arrows always find their mark.

    This^ is a problem for pug/pub/comp play. One button dodge has to go. Sorry.

    Do this and watch the skill balance.



  • For the Pavise shield, speaking from myself playing as an xbow and playing against them with xbows and bows, it’s not really used for cover, some will use it to block passageways (griefing mechanism atm on stoneshill but ghost is fixing that), and since the change so that it breaks when you jump on it you can’t use it to get to a better spot either (thought using it was a good thing but seems it ends up with a lot of exploits to fix / map fixing)

    it’s not used in the way it’s supposed to I guess, I’ve rarely used it for cover simply because I’m still more likely to get killed hiding behind it from it not protecting shoulders and up, even crouched behind reloading you can still pull off an easy kill, the only option I’ve really seen is when reloading you either turn around so it blocks (like all the shields so if you change this change it for them too !) and also when they are reloading you can’t hit them in certain spots due to it “hitting the shield” lol.

    So something needs to change in that aspect.

    As for ranged, I can’t really agree with Sly that archers were more of a support in AoC (skilled players took more kills than the melee) but I have to agree that ranged is easier in Chivalry for the damage values and types.

    (copying from it doesn’t paste well lol)

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1

    Agreed with sly on these:

    Warbow is an all around choice due to its medium speed reload, high damage, high range,

    I would say rather than a direct nerf, the warbow should get a tweak to be more of a “sniper” type weapon;

    Longbow:

    Great pick till you unlock the warbow:

    the longbow has decent all-around balance in regards to archer weapons. It can be a good anti-archer tool with the ability to one shot enemy archers with a headshot using bodkins, while still being good against melee too because of its relatively good damage and range. I think it’s in a pretty good spot as it is other than issues with archers overall.

    shortbow this:

    I love the shortbow’s mobility, it lets you stay in close and continue to create range by backpeddaling while firing. That said, I don’t think it fires fast enough for how low the damage is, not to mention the range - even with bodkins you have to stick a knight something like 4 times in the head - up to 6 to the body - and after one or two shots he’ll be on you. Since the cudgel nerf, archer backups aren’t strong enough for the shortbow to be used as a skirmish weapon. Increasing its fire rate and swap speed would help alleviate some of its shortcomings and make it more distinct from the longbow.

    As well as the comments regarding Xbows although taken from the damage values in the spreadsheet, the Heavy Xbow doesn’t 1 shot a Knight anymore?!?!
    Head Torso Arms Legs
    90 60 60 36

    As for Melee, I feel as though you get punished more for blocking an attack which can be a pain due to the speed of weapons, it’s worth taking the hit or in the case of MAA (using the dodge that doesn’t take much stamina).

    Would recommend the type of system AoC had, so when your attack gets blocked its more of a “rebound time” or whatever the word is for it as atm it’s more viable to use just 1 Attack (The dreaded Slash spam) than think which you’ll use and follow up on if blocked xD

    Ranged could you adjust the aims a bit so their not as easy as currently but also still have the new player learnability (more like AoC’s) though the Xbow without the crosshair Imo doesn’t really have any indicator where it is going to go (like aoc’s spike) also add a longer flight time view on javelins (WAY too short, even if they are for close range some of us like to use them for their far range too xD)



  • @Saraski:

    For the Pavise shield, speaking from myself playing as an xbow and playing against them with xbows and bows, it’s not really used for cover, some will use it to block passageways (griefing mechanism atm on stoneshill but ghost is fixing that), and since the change so that it breaks when you jump on it you can’t use it to get to a better spot either (thought using it was a good thing but seems it ends up with a lot of exploits to fix / map fixing)

    it’s not used in the way it’s supposed to I guess, I’ve rarely used it for cover simply because I’m still more likely to get killed hiding behind it from it not protecting shoulders and up, even crouched behind reloading you can still pull off an easy kill, the only option I’ve really seen is when reloading you either turn around so it blocks (like all the shields so if you change this change it for them too !) and also when they are reloading you can’t hit them in certain spots due to it “hitting the shield” lol.

    Hmm, interesting point. Put perhaps, the ability to ‘Kick’ down a Pavise Shield once deployed by a Crossbow-man?



  • Lol Sly you are such a chatty Cathey. I like the javelin write up. It is about time people are really talking about it. I dont know why my favorite weapon to the supposedly the most versatile role in the game is being shunned.

    Once again the 2 things just to make in it release worthy…( dont even get started on balance yet)

    1. Lower cooldown animation time on reloading drastically.

    2. Fix the less now frequent sensitivity bug after throwing.

    PRO JAV LOV



  • Frisbees are OP don’t buff them are you kidding me? :P



  • Here a small list of the most OP weapons:

    -Warhammer, 2 hits everything, is fast and you can use shield with it
    -Cudgel, you can 1 hit a knight if you hit him from behind to the head, which isn’t even possible with the maul
    -All vanguard swords, they are to fast for their strength and reach

    And the most underpowered weapons:

    -Heavy Crossbow, you definitly should 1 hit a knight with a bodyshot
    -Double axe, you need 3 hits for a knight and 2 for an archer - is this goddamn huge axe made out of paper or what?
    -Messer, it’s stab is just too weak for what the weapon looks like

    These are the most significant things, I could write more, but these are so enerving that they really need to be fixed.



  • Cudgel, you can 1 hit a knight if you hit him from behind to the head, which isn’t even possible with the maul

    That’s most definitely not possible, on any class.

    Archer = (501.5)1.250.8 = 75 backstab damage on the head.
    MAA = (50
    1.5)1.250.85 = 80 backstab damage on the head.
    Vanguard = (501.5)1.250.7 = 66 backstab damage on the head.
    Knight = (50
    1.5)1.250.6 = 57 backstab damage on the head.

    Messer, it’s stab is just too weak for what the weapon looks like.

    This is intentional. The Messer and its younger brother, the Falchion, both have poor stabs but make up for that in high slash and overhead damage, as well as being on the ‘Chopping’ damage types, meaning they do far more damage than normal 1h/2h sword swings. They are heavy swords, meant for cutting and not stabbing.



  • @Martin:

    Cudgel, you can 1 hit a knight if you hit him from behind to the head, which isn’t even possible with the maul

    That’s most definitely not possible, on any class.

    Archer = (50*1.5)1.250.8 = 75 backstab damage on the head.

    I’ve tested it, and it worked. Maybe you forgot to add the 50% bonus as an archer?


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