Balance Discussion



  • I have a small suggestion although it’s probably very hard to implement at this stage.

    It would be nice if hits connected even after death, many times I’ve died a split second before I would have skewed someone and so the hit doesn’t count. I think it is perfectly realistic that two people could bash each other to death at the same time. They shouldn’t ALWAYS connect but if the swing/stab is 90% done it definitely should. This should make people a little less reckless and reward people with careful timing.



  • @Vyy:

    hey Sly, thanks for your in-depth analysys about the classes and weapons.
    i cant wait to read your thoughts about knights and especially vanguards! will you wirte something about them too? and if so, when? really great work :)

    Why yes, yes I will.

    Vanguard is probably tied with Man-at-Arms as my personal best class, but I find myself only drawn to using swords when I play him. This is probably just my personal playstyle, but I find the other Vanguard weapons to just be too plain. The polearms are just longer and slower swords, generally having better slashing damage against armored classes due to being half blunt damage, with the halberd having a stronger stab as well. The spears are solely thrusting weapons, which is to be expected, but having a whole set of three weapons that function exactly the same with only statistical differences just doesn’t feel very interesting - at least with ranged weapons, you can really feel the differences.

    I’ve had three cups of coffee so this post is more detailed than previous write-ups, because of that super caffeine focus.

    Claymore > Zweihander > Greatsword

    The Claymore is the epitome of Vanguard weapons, for me. It’s got good speed, decent damage, and great versatility in attacks. The one area it really suffers is the sprint attack - in general, sprint attacks with the swords are only useful against groups of unwary enemies, and the claymore’s sprint attack covers the least area and does the least damage while still “stunning” you for the same amount of time. Because of its reduced range, you’re much more open to counterattacks from a missed sprint attack than with other weapons. I would suggest changing the Claymore’s sprint attack to be a powerful thrust instead, as it is the best 2handed sword for thrusting.

    The Zweihander is a very powerful weapon in its own regard, being perhaps the best weapon in the game for fighting groups of enemies due to its extremely high damage and wide reaching slash, while still being formidable in 1v1s due to the ability to one shot men-at-arms and archers, while dispatching of any other class in 2 hits. It suffers in having a weak and slow stab, though with the range and knockback its stab is still useful for keeping an enemy away or initiating a combo, as well as when you need a quick counterattack up close. The slowness of the weapon’s swings can be abused to be a strength rather than a weakness once you know how to manipulate it. The Zwei also has a fairly bad sprint attack, mainly because its sprint attack does the same as a normal slash, and less than its overhead. However, it’s damn near impossible to miss with, so it can still be useful if you want to force the enemy to go on the defensive at the start of an engagement.

    The Greatsword, paradoxically, swings both too fast and too slow. Feints, stabs, combos and a variety of other techniques aren’t as useful as they are with the claymore because of its slow speed - but unlike the zweihander, it’s still fast enough that you won’t be able to force an enemy to parry early just by pulling your swing away and turning back into them when the parry window ends. It also suffers from lower reach compared to the zwei. The final nail in the coffin is damage - all 3 twohanders do the same stab damage, but the claymore is obviously faster, and two stabs with it will take out any class but a knight, which requires 3 hits from either a GS or claymore. Slashes are equally in favor of the claymore, with the overhead dealing only 5 less damage than that of the GS - meaning you can still onehit archers. The zweihander’s case is even worse, because while it may only do 10 more damage on its slash and overhead compared to the GS, that’s still enough to let it 2 hit knights, which the GS is unable to do even with a sprint attack headshot, and one hit archers with a slash meaning they’ll have practically no chance of evading the attack. The GS has the strongest sprint attack of the three numerically, but it still only does as much damage as a zwei overhead, and just isn’t enough with how predictable and easily blocked all of the sword sprints are.

    Brandistock > Spear > Fork

    As I said in the opening, the spears right now just feel too unvaried, and as such the current balance of them can be summed up in one simple statement: Damage > Speed. The speed afforded by the Spear over the Brandistock is not enough to compensate the damage difference; however, the Spear is still a viable weapon, the Brandistock perhaps being too strong and needing to be slowed down some. The Fork is not a viable weapon, it is horribly weak, and has my vote for worst primary in the game. The Fork is perhaps the only primary weapon that can trade hits with an archer in melee and lose. Its damage is very low and its speed nothing to write home about. Needs to be sped significantly; or even better, give it the ability to combo, which would be a unique attribute among the spears and look cool.

    One small note is that like the swords, the highest damage spear is not the highest damage sprint attack - the spear has the second strongest sprint attack of any primary, after the halberd, both of them able to one shot a vanguard with a headshot. This is part of what makes the spear viable despite the brandistock’s dominance.

    Halberd > Bardiche > Billhook

    The Halberd, even after the nerf, is an extremely versatile weapon. It functions as a halfway point between a greatsword and a spear, having slightly weaker slashes than the former and a slightly stronger stab than the latter, as well as having a range and speed between the two. Its greatest strength over swords is its range, and its greatest strength over spears is its ability to slash/combo. Compared to the other polearms, it’s notably longer ranged than both of them, not that much slower than the billhook, and has the strongest sprint attack of any primary weapon, giving it the ability to one shot vanguards, though the spear does it better with its longer range. Overall the weapon is fairly well balanced within the class.

    The Bardiche I would’ve played last before the buffs to slow weapons. As it is now, its damage and reach advantage over the bill is enough to push it to second. Honestly, the weapon’s one shortcoming is its stab, which is understandable - but it can still 2 hit knights and 1 hit archers or men-at-arms. Not much else to say - it’s good for what it does, but overshadowed by the halberd mainly due to its stab and reach - though the ability to kill knights with 2 overheads even if you don’t score a head hit can be very useful. Its sprint attack is pretty awful.

    The Billhook, while having a weaker stab than the halberd, I consider the best polearm for stabbing. It is quite fast and will 2 hit anything but a knight with stabs. Its slashes are very nice, too, and combo well. However, all of its strengths are only slight advantages over the halberd - while the halberd’s range is a huge advantage over the bill. Its sprint attack is tied with the spear for second highest of any primary, but its lower range makes it harder to take advantage of. The bill isn’t a particularly bad weapon, but it’s still overshadowed, even moreso than the Bardiche which at least has a noticeable damage advantage against knights and MaA.

    Misc.

    Throwing knives are useful ranged backups for their ammo count, particularly if you know your damage values well enough to fully utilize them; you can turn an almost-kill into a sure thing before the opponent can react to your switch a lot of the time.

    Throwing axes rather than being a backup I find more useful to use to soften up unaware opponents, since you’re more likely to land a hit against an enemy who isn’t trying to avoid you, and the lower ammo count makes missing less ideal.

    Even after the smoke pots were fixed, I still find them fairly useless. They’re an interesting idea, but perhaps not fit for Chivalry with their current execution. It would be very difficult to improve their functionality without making smoke pot spam extremely annoying. Maybe they’ll see some use in organized clan matches and such, but for public play you’re better off not using them.

    I’d like to include an additional rant on sprint attacks in general. I don’t like their implementation at all on the primary weapons - they feel much more satisfying on secondaries, because they’re difficult to land and the damage increase is very high - all of the secondaries do at least 50% more damage on a sprint attack than on their strongest normal attack, including fists, while most of the primaries do the same or less damage. Sprint attacks with swords are both extremely easy to land and extremely easy to block - with spears and polearms, rather difficult to land while still being very easy to block. In neither case is landing one much more rewarding than landing a normal attack - in fact, when I’m playing as a knight or even vanguard and I have full health, I’ll often tank the sprint attack because I know I’ll be able to kill the vanguard in 2 hits before he recovers from it, since if you get hit by the attack while in mid-swing you won’t be stunned. The only real use I’ve found for sprint attacks is in free-for-all where you can take advantage of already engaged enemies. In a team game you’re just as likely to hit teammates as enemies. The one niche sprint attacks have is the ability to score one-hit kills you otherwise wouldn’t be able to achieve, such as the greatsword against MaAs, or the spear/halberd/bill against a vanguard. For swords, the nigh impossibility of missing the attack can also allow you to close the distance with the attack while forcing the enemy to parry, which is useful when fighting another VG with a longer range weapon - but again, this is assuming he doesn’t just take the hit and hit you back twice for a kill.

    In conclusion: sprint attacks should be something you want to avoid. Blocking them should put you at a disadvantage. Tanking the hit should hurt a lot. Currently, such is not the case, and many times the opposite is true.



  • Using smoke in corridors and gates is pretty useful, enemy doesn’t expect a vanguard jumping from there.



  • great post again sly, thank you!



  • The spears are much too slow. Wwo handed spears are very fast and agile weapons in RL.

    Watch this:
    O8RWLxlzTiM

    The spear in this game feels slow and heavy like a 5m long phallanx spear (which it is not).

    The speed of the stab itself and how often you can stab needs to be increased significantly (up to two times).
    The swing attack could use some speed buff too.



  • Do not get the 1 hand hammer mixed up with the maul. People use the 1 hand hammer with a shield and spam it side slashing you constantly. The 1 hand hammer can kill someone in 2 or 3 hits side slashing you up close and you can barely block the attack if they are up to your chest spamming. Everyone knows this so there resorting to playing knight with 1 hand hammer all the time… I dont know how this is fun? To get spammed by this hammer because its so fast and does so much damage.



  • The last two posts sum up my only real balance problems.

    The spears take 3 to 5 stabs dependent on the class you are attacking. Either it’s power or or speed needs to be slightly increased to bring it in line wih other weapons.

    The 1h hammer most of the time will kil any class with 2 hits, is extremely fast, and you can have a tower or kite sheild in your other hand. I don’t think the speed needs to be adjusted, but its power needs to be slightly reduced to 3-4 hits for a kill.



  • The spear is in no way under powered to me. it is really esay to use and it kills most classes in 2 hits (with the overhead button)

    But yeah the hammer does really too much damage.



  • @TigerGuitarist:

    The last two posts sum up my only real balance problems.

    The spears take 3 to 5 stabs dependent on the class you are attacking. Either it’s power or or speed needs to be slightly increased to bring it in line wih other weapons.

    The 1h hammer most of the time will kil any class with 2 hits, is extremely fast, and you can have a tower or kite sheild in your other hand. I don’t think the speed needs to be adjusted, but its power needs to be slightly reduced to 3-4 hits for a kill.

    The spear takes 2-3 hits to kill any class if you’re using its strongest attack (what would be overhead for most weapons). The Brandistock takes only 1 hit to the face to kill MaA or Archer, 2 body hits for VG, 1 head + 1 body for knight. Spears are very strong weapons IMO.



  • Actually, how to deal with most knights spamming the 1h warhammer if you have a long reach weapon (Polearm, 2h sword):

    Walk backward, stab, he parries/blocks, he attacks, walk backward and stab again. He’s used to spamming after parry and he will not fully be in range if you kite correctly, leading his swing to miss and your stab to hit.



  • @dragonfury:

    Actually, how to deal with most knights spamming the 1h warhammer if you have a long reach weapon (Polearm, 2h sword):

    Walk backward, stab, he parries/blocks, he attacks, walk backward and stab again. He’s used to spamming after parry and he will not fully be in range if you kite correctly, leading his swing to miss and your stab to hit.

    On paper this should work, but most knights I’ve come across don’t bother parrying because they can survive your hits while out damaging you.



  • The 1h hammer is extremely limited in range and it can be difficult for a hammer user to close the gap between a VG with a spear/halberd who knows to hit around or over the shield. Yes, it can be punishing in close quarters, but the fact that you are trading blows with someone who has a 1h hammer means you’ve made the fatal mistake of getting too close or letting them get too close to you. While big shields can help knights close the distance-and it seems to be the prevailing tactic, it also severely limits their battlefield awareness and therefore combat effectiveness in a way that can’t be measured in terms of damage/speed.

    Also, if you swing too early and miss that first hammer blow you’re immediately open to an attack from most of the weapons aside from the shorter knives and maces. Not only that, but it’s difficult to fight a group with a hammer due to it’s low range. If you have 2/3 people pecking away at your shield with stab attacks its hard to change the momentum and counter attack effectively with the 1h hammer because of its low range whereas with a sword/polearm you can at least swing back and have a decent chance of taking them out because you can reach them and counter attack. With the 1h hammer you have to really commit and throw yourself at your opponent, leaving your back/ flanks open to nearby enemies.

    It’s much like the maces/falchion with their high speed/high damage and low range- yes, you can get in people’s faces and start flailing, but that leaves your back open to any nearby enemies. The right way to play is to be conservative and defensive with it until your opponent makes a mistake or mis swings and then charge in and punish him for it.

    I also really have no difficulty killing enemies who use 1h hammer it’s actually ridiculously easy with the falchion. I just rush in and do downward slashes because i know my attack is faster and has more reach. Kills them before them can even wind up.

    If i’m using a pole arm or blade, just play somewhat defensively, actually BLOCK the strikes, and kick every now and then. If he hasn’t backed off after that, your nearby teammates will have probably given him a surprise colonoscopy.



  • I find the vanguard range to be a bit over powered. But not in the way you think. I feel that he should have a range window where if he is too close with certain weapons, they do no, or limited damage.

    Take the Halberd. It is a polearm, you hit with the pointy bit. Not the haft.

    Man at Arms needs to use more stamina when dodging. The little guy teleports all over the place.

    EDIT: I do not feel the warhammer is overpowered. It has very short range. The knight is super slow. The other classes all have a speed and range bonus over him. If he kicks you, he puts you out of range of his weapon. The MaA can easily keep his distance, and the vanguard can too, and still keep on attacking you.



  • Do you guys have any suggestions as to how to effevtively use the battle axe? I find it’s really gimped compared to the other 2h swords due to doing basically the same damage with less range and less speed.



  • saying hammer is balanced cause it has no chance vs polearms,
    thats just stupid cause polearms are a special counter for that.

    and an attack leaves u always open for counter attacksthats with every weapon not especially the hammer.

    u have to compare it to other 1h Weapons and there it is godlike cause its far stronger.
    and the range problem is not a real problem the ingame stats are not accurate and its real range is ok.

    the real problem is that a knight will just trade hits and his big shield let him get close enough to any other 1h 100% cause u have to fight at this range and there he will outdamage u and out live u cause he is far more durable then anyother class even other knights he just out sustains.

    Its not balanced but i would not say the problem is the 2h kill (jeah even knights) its just the fact it has not enough flaws like range and speed not to be used.

    btw if someone stands infront me with a polearm i jsut take out my norsesword and stab him to death. dont limit urself to one weapon only the problem is not only the hammer its the kit which comes with it. the only good thing with the hammer is that it is no secondary



  • @bananabrah:

    Do you guys have any suggestions as to how to effevtively use the battle axe? I find it’s really gimped compared to the other 2h swords due to doing basically the same damage with less range and less speed.

    The double axe is a very terrible weapon unfortunately. Both the pole axe and bearded axe are far superior. But I’ll cover this when I do a write-up on Knights later (Saving the best class for last)



  • Bolts and arrows need a greater missile speed, as they are right now they don’t fly fast enough to be of any use outside of close range(close for ranged weapons).

    This is the most important for crossbows as they are essentially useless right now. And not just when I use them.

    The throwing spears need a lesser recovery time.



  • @DemonD:

    Bolts and arrows need a greater missile speed, as they are right now they don’t fly fast enough to be of any use outside of close range(close for ranged weapons).

    This is the most important for crossbows as they are essentially useless right now. And not just when I use them.

    The throwing spears need a lesser recovery time.

    Projectiles already got a speed increase I’m pretty sure. They were slower in beta.



  • Let me first say this is an awesome game, it’s one of the most addictive multiplayer experiences I’ve had in a long while.

    After about 20 hours into the game, here are my concerns:

    Things I consider underpowered:

    The Dual/Battle Axe. It is completely outclassed by all the other short ranged weapons in the knight’s arsenal, it’s speed is horrendous, and the damage feels gimped for it’s such short range. While playing a knight, I’ve been easily 2-shotted by the 2h swords (more on that later) while my battle axe takes down knights in 3 hits, and vanguards in 2 (that seems fine, but i think it should do atleast 2/3rds damage instead of around half).

    The Heavy Crossbow. While brutal in the hands of a skilled player, it still isn’t worth the lowered speed when matched with the normal crossbow. The devs should atleast slightly boost the damage, or the more realistic answer is shield-piercing (except for tower and xbowmen shields) shots. It’s simply not worth it.

    The 1-handed axes in general. This one isn’t as crucial as the others, but I do feel the slashing damage is a little weak to warrant use over a sword or mace.

    Potentially Overpowered:

    HALBERDS! Everything in this weapon catagory is pretty broken from what I’ve seen/used. It has greater range that most 2h swords, does around the same damage, and is for the most part faster. Like many posters before me mentioned, I feel the devs should make it so the damage output stops when you get close to the person wielding it, because getting one-shotted as a MaA by the wooden shaft of the weapon is a little broken (obviously).

    2-H Swords. After comparing each weapon and their categories, this is probably my greatest concern, because I feel nothing will be done about it. Take the pole axe for example, it is out shined by the greatsword in every way, even the faulty stats show an imbalance in range. The 2-H swords are simply way too easily spammable for it’s massive radius and damage. More and more I see servers filled with 60% of my teammates using this catagory of weapon, mashing M1 as quick as possible. I’ve seen some of the best MaA players be point blank in a someone’s grill, hitting as quickly as possible, only to get team killed by a selfish player mashing the slash attack with his claymore.

    I love this game, and I don’t want to see it go the way of other loadout based FPSs, where players only use one type of weapon while all the others are collecting dust due to overlooking a flaw in the programming. These are just my thoughts, of course.



  • @bananabrah:

    Potentially Overpowered:

    HALBERDS! Everything in this weapon catagory is pretty broken from what I’ve seen/used. It has greater range that most 2h swords, does around the same damage, and is for the most part faster. Like many posters before me mentioned, I feel the devs should make it so the damage output stops when you get close to the person wielding it, because getting one-shotted as a MaA by the wooden shaft of the weapon is a little broken (obviously).

    2-H Swords. After comparing each weapon and their categories, this is probably my greatest concern, because I feel nothing will be done about it. Take the pole axe for example, it is out shined by the greatsword in every way, even the faulty stats show an imbalance in range. The 2-H swords are simply way too easily spammable for it’s massive radius and damage. More and more I see servers filled with 60% of my teammates using this catagory of weapon, mashing M1 as quick as possible. I’ve seen some of the best MaA players be point blank in a someone’s grill, hitting as quickly as possible, only to get team killed by a selfish player mashing the slash attack with his claymore.

    I love this game, and I don’t want to see it go the way of other loadout based FPSs, where players only use one type of weapon while all the others are collecting dust due to overlooking a flaw in the programming. These are just my thoughts, of course.

    As someone who has 20 hours of gameplay almost entirely as a Vanguard, I don’t see how the Halberd category is overpowered. I also wouldn’t have a problem if they reduced the damage that the slash or chop did at close range. If a MaA gets close in (or anyone for that matter) it turns into me stabbing him with the damn thing.

    I do see the problem with the 2H Swords though. It’s extremely frustrating as a Vanguard to be fighting someone who has one and all they do is run at you like a f’ing propeller. It also seems like the 2H swords have a very similar range as the slash or chop as a Halberd, which is ridiculous.

    On another note, I love using the spear, and would like to see a better (looking) version of it. I’m not a fan of the last 2 in the spear category.


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