Balance Discussion



  • @HEXEN:

    You gotta love people that just dismiss tangible, visceral evidence and base their own arguments on subjective speculation. The “played against noobs” argument is just so bulletproof. Cook something else up for us there, ace.

    If you can watch that video and still claim the MAA doesn’t have strong attributes, I weep for the future. 2 + 2 = radish.

    Wow. I fucking saw in that video few people on the battlefield and how scattered they were. I saw in that video how they responded to and fought against Sharantil. You call that subjective speculation? I dont dismiss the evidence, i reviewed it and found it not to prove what you wanted to have it prove. The only good side shown in that video to the MAA with norse sword that the other classes do not have is the ability to kill easy targets fast.
    MAA is decent/good with <5v5 players and some space. Thats as far as MAA is balanced.
    The first step to fixing this is to slightly improve dodge and make it cost much less stamina, while possibly making MAAs shields less stamina effective, making them a last resort. Secondly improve his running speed in contrast to other classes and possibly, but not neccessarily, remove “chasing mechanic”.



  • I personally want to see the double-axe be a combo weapon; I think it makes sense with the whole DOUBLE thing. So, high recovery time, low release and combo time, average windup - make it scary to keep swinging, berserker mode style. Bearded should get the exact opposite treatment then, with a bit of a damage boost, and it’ll be the superior option for making single hits of opportunity. Pole is fine the way it is I think - it still has the reach and general balance in stats.

    On knight blunts I’m stumped - I don’t really see how the grand mace will ever have a niche compared to the other two, other than nerfing the warhammer into obscurity.

    Thrust weapons are more complicated. I really feel like thrust attacks right now in combination with feints are just a general issue. The best MaA, Knight and Vanguard weapons are all thrust based. They deal good damage to everything while being fast and easy to land head hits with. If thrust attacks had a bit longer windup and significantly shorter release in combination with a bit longer recovery, they could have about the same total attack time as they do now but require more precise aim (less time to adjust in mid-swing), as well as giving you more time to capitalize on a miss. Maybe the Norse and Sword of War wouldn’t even need a direct nerf if this were how thrusts worked in general, in addition to a reduction on feint spamming.

    Other weapons I’ll think about later, I’ve made enough long-winded posts today.

    –----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And I actually agree with Sultanofswing’s general feeling but not necessarily his reasoning. MaA feels lacking against teams with proper teamwork - it’s a lot harder to pick single enemies out of a well coordinated group, which is what the MaA is best at. Dodge could use some improvements, it still has some bugs that make it fire in the wrong direction or stop before it reaches full distance, etc. while taking a very large chunk of stamina. Combo mechanics are also a little strange and hit MaA the hardest because of his fast attack speed; comboing with the Hatchet instead of waiting for your recovery only shaves off .1 second of total time between attacks, which is very small reward for the huge risk of committing to two attacks in a row blindly, considering MaA cannot afford to trade hits with anyone but another MaA or archer (or a Vanguard using the fork :P). Right now attack timings make it so that only a select few weapons are really worth comboing with. I think this contributes heavily to why the Norse Sword’s poke-only strategy is so good.

    But of course, if MaA combo speeds are improved, that’s not really a buff to MaA - it’s a buff to his weapons which the other two melee classes can also use. I’ve been practicing axe+shield lately specifically because it’s the only primary weapon combination no other class can use.



  • @SlyGoat:

    Well with all of the biased opinions in this thread recently I guess it’s finally time to bring back some objective discussion. I haven’t gotten 'round to the Knight because quite frankly I could not have made an objective opinion of him before, being as I played Knight even less than Archer. However, over the past week I’ve been playing Knight about 70% of my games and switching weapons up a lot to get a good feel for them, going to other classes once in a while to keep a balanced perspective. So here it is - I’ve truly saved the best for last.

    The Knight’s inherent special ability isn’t really a special ability. It just says he has the most armor and can block infinitely. However, given the situational usefulness of the Archer’s special, and the near uselessness of the VG’s special, and the fact that without his special the MaA would have worse survivability than an archer, I have to say the Knight has the best “special ability” in the game. Nothing short of siege weaponry can kill a knight in one hit, and none of the light weapons can kill him in 2 - in fact a lot of the heavy weapons can’t either; outside of the Knight’s own weapons, only the Brandistock, Bardiche and Zweihander can 2-shot a knight, and all of them require both hits to be headshots; meanwhile, every knight weapon but the Sword of War and Longsword can take a knight in 2. This, in addition to getting the only shield option which provides near complete protection from projectiles, pretty much makes Knight the best counter class to Knight.

    Weapons

    Pole Axe > Bearded Axe > Double Axe

    This one is a no brainer, really. The Pole Axe is just plain superior to the other axes. The one point where any other axe is stronger is the double axe’s ability to one-shot Men-at-Arms. This isn’t much of an issue considering the Double Axe will rarely hit a Man-at-Arms. The Pole Axe takes archers in one, which can be useful, and takes any other class in 2 with either its stab or its overhead - any class but Knight requires only 2 slashes. This gives the Pole Axe great attack variety, and more importantly, a powerful stab which the other axes lack. It’s faster than the other axes, longer range, and has better combo speed. The only area it suffers at all is slightly longer recovery, but it doesn’t really matter as long as you keep swinging until they die or block since you can continuously combo overheads and stabs together to avoid going into recovery.

    The Bearded can’t one shot anyone, but it’s still got more range and speed than the double axe with the ability to two-hit any class with overheads (though for a knight both must be headshots) - it’s a close race, really, neither weapon is very good. I personally prefer the bearded axe, so maybe I’m just biased here.

    The Double Axe is just really slow and short and doesn’t do amazing damage. If I wanted a slow weapon I’d go with the Maul, since it can at least one-shot Vanguards and bring Knights low enough to kick them to death. It even outranges the Double Axe. Along with the Fork and War Axe, this weapon is in the running for worst primary in the game.

    Warhammer > Maul > Grand Mace

    This one was also pretty easy to call. The Warhammer can 2 shot any class in the game just by slashing them in the skull. If you decide to overhead instead, you don’t even need headshots - two body blows takes out anyone. The other knight blunt weapons are understandably slow, but the Warhammer is very fast, about the same speed as the Morning Star which is incapable of 2 shotting Knights and requires precise overhead to two shot Vanguards whereas the Warhammer can just slash. It also has deceptively long range for its small model, and of course being a one-handed weapon you can use it with your massive shields. There’s a reason why the Warhammer is considered one of the strongest weapons in the game at the moment.

    The Maul is actually a pretty viable weapon. An accurate overhead kills any class in one hit except a Knight, which it leaves low enough to kill with one punch, meaning any Knight who walks into a fight at less than full HP is dead. It’s very slow, but this only really matters for its windup and recovery, both of which leave you open - as with the Zweihander, you can use a combination of feints and dragging your mouse to fake your enemy into parrying too early or too late, using the slow speed to your advantage. The biggest weakness of the Maul is actually its range, as if you start swinging close to an enemy with a fast weapon they’ll often be able to flinch you out of it, while if you start swinging too far away they can just back out of the range and use your long recovery time to get in a free hit. Still, for the damage it packs, these weaknesses only act as balancing factors. The addition of heavy stamina loss when parrying depending on weapon weight was a nice buff to the Maul, but I’d like to see it taken further - right now it seems like the extra stamina lost is only noticeable against daggers.

    The Grand Mace is essentially just double-axe+ - it does more damage, is a bit faster, and has substantially longer range, while one-shotting archers and men-at-arms and taking the other classes in two, though unlike the double-axe you don’t need headshots to twoshot a knight, and in fact only need one overhead and one slash to the body, if for some reason you feel the need to slash. It’s not a phenomenal weapon, but it’s not bad. It lacks the heavy damage niche of the Maul, the speed and one-handedness of the Warhammer, or even the versatility of the Pole Axe, but it won’t drag you down like the Double-Axe will.

    2H Messer > 2H Longsword = 2H Sword of War
    1H Sword of War > 1H Longsword > 1H Messer
    Overall: Sword of War > Messer = Longsword

    When wielded 2-handed, the Messer gives you two-hit kills against Knights, which is a pretty big deal. All of the Knight swords have their merits, but the Messer is made to be used two-handed; it gets the biggest damage boost in two hands and the smallest speed boost in one compared to the other bastard swords. The range will let you down, and using any attack but overhead is pretty much pointless, but the raw damage is very nice. With its unique damage type among swords, shared only by the Falchion, the 2-handed Messer is essentially the best axe in the Knight’s arsenal (not counting the Pole Axe which does considerable amounts of Blunt and Piercing damage). The ability to whip out a shield when necessary as well just makes it all the better.

    The Longsword on paper appears to be the best bastard sword for someone who wants to switch between one-handed and two-handed - however, the speed gained from using it one-handed is substantial, and the damage lost not so much; you won’t get any kills against a full health opponent with the 2-handed longsword that you wouldn’t with the one-handed, except against archers, which the 2handed version kills in one hit - but it’s undeniably better to have a shield equipped when fighting against archers anyway. It could use some balancing to make it more viable in two hands and less so in one if it’s meant to be equally good at both. Its stronger potential with a shield as well as its longer range puts it on par with the Messer despite its inability to two-shot Knights.

    You may have noticed I had such a hard time claiming either the Messer or Longsword to be the superior choice; I think they’re both strong enough options that while one may be slightly better than the other in general, they each shine in different situations, and among similar weapon types these two are close enough to actually be called perfectly balanced in comparison to eachother. It really comes down to whether you want to use a shield or not. Sword of War and Longsword are about equal when used 2-handed as well; they do similar damage and have similar speed, while the Sword of War gets a better stab and the Longsword gets longer reach.

    The Sword of War is essentially the same in terms of attack power when used onehanded or twohanded - the twohanded variety has stronger slashes, but only a slightly stronger stab, the stab damage difference not being enough to ever matter against a full HP target - and this weapon is 100% about stabbing. However, when wielded one-handed, the speed gain is substantial, far more than compensating for the small loss in damage on the only attack you’ll ever need to use. The one-handed Sword of War is essentially a slightly slower, longer range Norse Sword - you’ll stab everything to death in 2-3 hits. In the current state of the game, thrusts are king - especially when combined with feints - and powerful thrusts with good range and a shield puts the Sword of War above not only the other Knight swords, but most weapons in the game.

    Misc.

    Tower Shields are extremely powerful. There’s not much else to say. If you want to be virtually invulnerable, use a Tower Shield.

    Kite Shields look cool but they cover less area and there currently doesn’t seem to be any reason to use them over Tower Shields. The stat screen would imply they cost less stamina and can be raised/dropped faster, but if that’s true the numerical difference is too small to be noticed - that, or the Knight’s less-stamina-to-block passive is nullifying the difference.

    Man-at-Arms weapons - I still consider this an issue. I see no reason to have MaA weapons available to Knights - they already have their own very powerful one-handed swords and the Warhammer which is generally superior to any mace. I would like to see Knights (and Vanguards) get the same secondaries as Archers and Men-at-Arms - because these weapons fulfill the role of secondaries appropriately. With the Knight’s ability to take far more hits than a MaA, as well as their access to the almighty tower shield, a Knight can generally pick up any MaA sword or mace and be more effective with it than a MaA would be even with perfect use of dodging. At the very least take away the swords so the MaA has something unique - there are actually times I wish I had a dagger as a Knight anyway, like when my Maul leaves an opposing Knight with 6 HP.

    Excellent analysis of the balance.

    Glad you took the time to type this out.

    I agree with 95% of what you say :)



  • Grand mace could be the “long mace” of the knight’s blunt weapons…making it faster than the warhammer or stronger than the maul would be wrong. So just make it solid middle ground between the two in terms of speed and power and give it an edge in terms of reach. Reach is quite useful, especially on a class as slow as the knight.

    …and nice summary slygoat :wink:



  • It already has quite a nice reach advantage, Falc - it just isn’t enough.



  • @SlyGoat:

    It already has quite a nice reach advantage, Falc - it just isn’t enough.

    …ok now that I have read my text again, I think I should get more definite:
    Buff the grand mace range and speed. Right now it is nearly as slow as the maul…buff windup from 0.6 to 0.55 and slash/overhead release from 0.6 to 0.55. Reach increase about 10%. Should make the weapon viable. Maybe these buffs are already too much, because you get quite close to knight 2h sword territory…

    I also like your ideas for the double axe and the bearded axe. The poleaxe overshadows both so hard it’s not even funny. Double axe needs some serious buffs, right now it’s a slow, weak (even the warhammer is stronger!!), low reach weapon on the slowest class. I like your “double axe berserker” idea, although I’m not quite sure if you should promote slashspamming…but this weapon needs a damage increase, so it can 2 shot knights with slash/overhead bodyhits. Overhead headshot should 1 shot vg. Reduce combo time from 0.8 to 0.65, which would make it the fastest combo axe. I’m not quite sure if this would be enough to make the weapon viable, but it should be a large step in the right direction.

    The bearded and the poleaxe have quite similar roles, both being long, heavy axes. Just make one a bit faster (right now it’s the pole) and make the other a bit longer. I don’t see a point in changing their damage values, because you could only buff them from needing 2h(bearded)/1h(pole) for a knight 2shot to 1h/0h. This would also cause them to 1shot maa with headshots. Nerfing their damage would not be appropriate in my book. Of course you could give them some extra damage so they could. Maybe give the bearded some little extra, because that poleaxe stab is quite nice.



  • 2 of quick complains ….

    the doubleaxe is useless , slow ,no reach and the dmgs is not high enough to justify those low stats … never seen anybody using it except for unlocking the next weapon …IMO the maul is better in every aspect…

    the light-xbow is no good compared to the other xbows … if we could move while reloading that would make the light-xbow much more interesting and more tactical ( not at 100% speed but maybe like 50% while reloading )

    thats it for the moment … ill post more tomorow after work



  • It doesn’t really make sense that thrust is the fastest, has the longest reach, AND deals a boatload of damage on some weapons (aka the best weapons in the game). I do use other attacks/weapons when I play but obviously there is zero reason to do so right now.

    I would like to see something to buff MAA’s survivability just a little bit so he can be more effective in group fights and for his dodge I feel is useful enough since when you need it, you really need it. Some of the things annoying with the MAA dodge is when I strafe after I sprint it activates the dodge and rapidly changing direction sometimes triggers the dodge.

    Something that annoys me also is how parries aren’t exact, if I press M2 in succession, not even rapidly it parries twice. I would seriously like parries to be EXACT and timed with mouse presses instead of being doubletap silliness.

    For feints I think they should cost a bit more stamina/have more delay/incur a heavier stamina penalty when missing strikes or if you block the feinted strike, make them punishable with a strike that deals half? damage, rewarding you for your block.

    One thing I do like about this game though is that it’s very offensive and it’s not a parry spamming staredown.



  • PLEASE make knights slower…they are way to fast right now :x



  • The two that posted above me.
    they get DESTROYED because they don’t think.
    I play MAA and fight 4 guys at the same time and WIN because I use MOVEMENT and don’t act retarded.

    And if ANYTHING I want the knight to strike a LITTLE faster. Because they strike TO slow. You guys are such babies I swear. Play the game and LEARN your limits. “You win some, you lose some”



  • I agree with whippy. The dodge or movespeed, MAA only needs one.



  • @Mr.Whippy:

    The two that posted above me.
    they get DESTROYED because they don’t think.
    I play MAA and fight 4 guys at the same time and WIN because I use MOVEMENT and don’t act retarded.

    And if ANYTHING I want the knight to strike a LITTLE faster. Because they strike TO slow. You guys are such babies I swear. Play the game and LEARN your limits. “You win some, you lose some”

    We are babies for wanting a balanced game and thus a quality product for our money?
    Also everyone bringing examples are stupid because examples are conditional and dont mean shit in terms of practically anything. The more exaggerated the examples are the more pointless.
    Making the knight strike faster lessens the difference between the knight and the classes that strike faster than him, thus decreasing variety and tactical neccessity.



  • @Sultanofswing:

    @Mr.Whippy:

    The two that posted above me.
    they get DESTROYED because they don’t think.
    I play MAA and fight 4 guys at the same time and WIN because I use MOVEMENT and don’t act retarded.

    And if ANYTHING I want the knight to strike a LITTLE faster. Because they strike TO slow. You guys are such babies I swear. Play the game and LEARN your limits. “You win some, you lose some”

    We are babies for wanting a balanced game and thus a quality product for our money?
    Also everyone bringing examples are stupid because examples are conditional and dont mean shit in terms of practically anything. The more exaggerated the examples are the more pointless.
    Making the knight strike faster lessens the difference between the knight and the classes that strike faster than him, thus decreasing variety and tactical neccessity.

    Agreed. Keep this game with alot of variety.

    I’ve played Knight for 100+ hours and I got some things to say:
    The #3 (when you unlock) mace is useless. It’s too weak and the only thing it gives is more reach then #2 hammer, but since you GO for hammers you don’t even care about reach - you care about dmg. You should redesign the #3 hammer, imho. Atleast look into it!
    The #1 is mediocre and pretty weak, which is how #1 weapons should be, so that’s fine.

    The double axe is bad, low reach low damage and slow = it’s just not gonna be used. I want you to look into it aswell.

    Morning star mace is too good, it’s the only mace use when you go shield + 1h, because it’s simply the best of the best.
    The reason? I think it’s because of the reach + massive dmg. Again, the other 1h’s got useless stats no one cares about when going shield - speed. When you go 1h shield it’s like this: Damage>Reach>Speed. Look into it and please change it so we got reason to go for the other 1 handers.

    And now for some other things…Archers

    The crossbow is to hard to use and bad, if you don’t hit with your arrow you will die since it takes ages to reload, it’s simply to hard. A normal bow archer is way more versatile, mobile and stronger then a crossbowsman.
    The crossbow archer shot should 1 shot a knight if you hit him, because it’s designed for that. Atleast as I see it? oO Look into it, please!

    I like where the normal bow is atm. Good damage and stuff, it’s fine and dandy, but then again I have played VERY little archers.

    Hmm…what else was there…

    VANGUARD. Haven’t played alot at all, but I’ve noticed one thing: Sprint striking with the spear is useless. Since it’s a pierce attack and a sprint charge is so obvious, it’s just not gonna happen vs a mediocre player.
    When you go sprint slash with sword you can kill alot of people in one sweep, it’s easy to hit with it and you don’t need precision really - but the spear is just too hard and gimmicky with spear sprint strike. Requires too much precision. Look into it atleast, but remember I’m not an experienced vanguard, and no one should obviously only rely on killing people USING the sprint strike!



  • ALL THAT NEEDS FIXING IS 1H WEAPON DAMAGE (DOES MORE THAN 2H SWORD COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC, Knights die in 3 hits with MOST 1h weapon, takes 4 hits with a 2h sword)

    1H HAMMER ESPECIALLY

    TOWER SHIELD

    Other than that

    Quit yo bitchin! The more you play this game the more you realize its extremely balanced as it is.

    Knight attack speed is fine. VG speed is fine (although the overhead with halberd animation seems to hit me on the windup not on the animation landing on me, this could be lag/animation rubber banding however… because at other times the halberd animation is flawless and I can block it no problem)



  • as a matter of fact, most of the faster weapons do the damage before the animation lands. I find myself clicking parry as they do their windup as the most effective way to block a fast weapon (but its hard to get used to blocking before the animation lands, because other weapons you have to do it that way)

    maybe look into the animations…

    even happening on 20ping server



  • speaking of animations, the one handed overhead animation is dumb.

    Most right handed people do an overhead swing starting from above the right shoulder. In game a overhead swing starts center-left.

    It’s a very small gripe, but it’s not very pretty to look at.



  • Gore, the reason you think 2handed swords do less damage than 1handed weapons is you’re slashing with them. Knights take a whopping 60% less damage from slash damage attacks - so yes, it takes a hell of a lot of slashes to kill one. The Messer does axe damage, so you can kill a knight with it using just two overhead slashes to the skull. The Sword of War and Longsword will 3 hit a knight with stabs.



  • Well first Jav

    Im no archer but i see that javs often have prolbems to keep throwing even bigger problems than xbows wich doesnt make much sense. So it really needs a bit too speed up maybe an animation where he grabs his back for the next jav.

    i agree to slygoat that the arrows are not really balanced aswell as bows/xbows in that case u should use em for.Shortbow-> anti archer and good for spam.longbow balance. warbow sniperbow.

    Coming to the 2handed axes clubs. the stab ability is completly overpowered instant hits give the attacker the most, biggest chance to spam the enemy with slower weapons. But overheads slashes are probably too slow with my vanguard 2handed sword i just outrange them or spam cap them aslong as im outa reach of their instant nonsense. if it stays like that the dmg HAS to be reduced drastically since its a blunt piece of nothing just pushing the enemy away. i find it still nearly impossible to kill with those weapons (besides the stab) wich is not really fair. i mean dagger>2haxes>2hmaces? well at the moment i would get 10x more kills with dagger than axes.

    The halberd of the vanguard is incredibly overpowerd since its often not used properly. its not that its range would really be the problem or the dmg, it gets stupidly hard to kill a “skilled” vanguard with halberd WHEN U are standing toe to toe right next to him as close as the models allow it. I mean hows that supposed to be? its speed is ridicoulus and its dmg output (when up close) doesnt make any sense at all it gets really harder the closer u come wich is not what i was expecting of a long stick with an axe ontop.

    the maa stab with swords is really overpowered when mixed with the glitchy slide dodge they use. A vanguard has nearly no health (===……) When getting stabbed once while the maa still happily jumps around after taking a 2handed stab right to the face but still he is the lower armoured class.
    it doesnt help much if the maa loses tons of stamina and i mean how realistic is that? being exhausted for jumping once. i really dont know what to do about it, maybe have the dodge slowed down so hes not warping all over the floor but its still his main skill to kill enemys.

    what i also find weird is that the vanguards are for their low armour rather slow. Maybe that trades off with its very fast long high dmging weapons but still he is the weakest against archers (that are behind enemy lines) i dont complain about archers or them to be high dmg or to easy to shoot, but for its pros the vanguard has way to much cons in my like just looking at health/movement evading ability. I wanna remind he dies in 2 hits being the second heaviest class in the game (even an archer takes 2 hits of a hte claymore)

    i just hope that this helps the game receive more of its balance
    gj tornbanner! :)



  • I’m happy to see that there isn’t a whole lot of complaining about the Brandistock, considering it has such a nice reach with good damage output. I still think its going to be hard to justify what isn’t balanced, simply because you have now way of comparing two like-skill players with the weapons in question. I think this game relies more on skill and timing than picking the best weapon. The only weapon I see used significantly more than others is the 2H sword, and I think the reason is because you can keep slashing with it and cover a lot of ground. But, there again, they can easily be countered by keeping distance, using ranged weapons, or parrying.



  • @Damien:

    I’m happy to see that there isn’t a whole lot of complaining about the Brandistock, considering it has such a nice reach with good damage output. I still think its going to be hard to justify what isn’t balanced, simply because you have now way of comparing two like-skill players with the weapons in question. I think this game relies more on skill and timing than picking the best weapon. The only weapon I see used significantly more than others is the 2H sword, and I think the reason is because you can keep slashing with it and cover a lot of ground. But, there again, they can easily be countered by keeping distance, using ranged weapons, or parrying.

    I only complain about the Brandistock when Able uses it (or I guess anyone else who employs his “tactic” but I haven’t seen any).

    Feint feint feint feint feint feint feint feint feint feint feint feint feint feint feint - animation never changes once.


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