One-hander blunt primaries for knight- balance discussion



  • With an archer nerf hopefully on its way let us engage in a less important discussion about our one-hander blunt primaries for knight, namely the warhammer, light flail and heavy flail. I’d like to hear some thought on them, whether are they any viable and possible suggestions to improve them. I’ve heard mostly negative views and so I wonder how it really is. Feel free to drop some extra thoughts on bardiche and fork, I just wonder^^.

    I’ll start:
    The warhammer
    Despite the fact that some are complaining about it being trash, I find it actually quite viable. It deals heavy damage and can be used with a shield. It is also quite fast actually, it has the hatchet like insta look-down overheads plus it has got great draggability. Problem with onehander drags is that they are much harder to execute than with two-handers (greatsword is basically ez-mode for drags). Finally, because it shares the animations with swords it is held quite high and it is easy to score headshots with it.

    The only problem I have with it is the quite long recovery times, especially on overheads. Because the weapon will spend most of its release bellow the player for its normal overhead, the two-hander like recovery is more than punishing should you miss. I believe that because off the weapon’s length and it being a one-hander, it could deserve a more generous recovery time. Say 0.5 or 0.6.

    **The heavy flail
    **Longer but slower and less damaging than the warhammer. Has different stab, it is harder to notice/parry.
    As far as I can say there is no point in using flail other than just for using something different. It does its job well but warhammer does it better. Yes it is slightly longer but that just won’t cut it. So far the best idea I’ve come across is giving it sick combo times, maybe nerfing normal wind-up a bit but really short comboes so it was…. different from other weapons.

    The light flail
    Much slower, shorter and more akward morning star with a different stab.
    This weapon needs a major overhaul. I’ve been playing with it a lot, to understand it but it just always felt not rewarding enough. For the speed it has, lack of drags or reverse overheads, it just doesn’t reward a successful hit well enough. Damage is shit all across the board, it might be multi purpose but broadsword plus say G-mace would be so much more viable. Also the fact it is primary just makes me wondering why exactly should I take it over of morning star that would allow me to pick a longsword some other anti maa weapon and would as well do the job better.

    I suppose it could as well be given sick combo times but it needs more, it needs to be changed into a secondary. Secondary forcing a shield on you is not all that odd and you could carry two flails to look badass (I think?).

    My final word is that if we take all these primaries that you have to toil with to get a hit through and in the end it’s not all that rewarding (except warhammer), it all just comes down to the question: Why bother, when you can take flanged mace that does pretty much the same, is faster and much more straight forward AND IS A SECONDARY (so you can grab a better primary)? Out of them only the warhammer is worth it if you can drag it and exploit its look-down overheads well enough….

    TL,DR - the bald stuff



  • @Martys:

    With an archer nerf hopefully on its way let us engage in a less important discussion about our one-hander blunt primaries for knight, namely the warhammer, light flail and heavy flail. I’d like to hear some thought on them, whether are they any viable and possible suggestions to improve them. I’ve heard mostly negative views and so I wonder how it really is. Feel free to drop some extra thoughts on bardiche and fork, I just wonder^^.

    I’ll start:
    The warhammer
    Despite the fact that some are complaining about it being trash, I find it actually quite viable. It deals heavy damage and can be used with a shield. It is also quite fast actually, it has the hatchet like insta look-down overheads plus it has got great draggability. Problem with onehander drags is that they are much harder to execute than with two-handers (greatsword is basically ez-mode for drags). Finally, because it shares the animations with swords it is held quite high and it is easy to score headshots with it.

    The only problem I have with it is the quite long recovery times, especially on overheads. Because the weapon will spend most of its release bellow the player for its normal overhead, the two-hander like recovery is more than punishing should you miss. I believe that because off the weapon’s length and it being a one-hander, it could deserve a more generous recovery time. Say 0.5 or 0.6.

    **The heavy flail
    **Longer but slower and less damaging than the warhammer. Has different stab, it is harder to notice/parry.
    As far as I can say there is no point in using flail other than just for using something different. It does its job well but warhammer does it better. Yes it is slightly longer but that just won’t cut it. So far the best idea I’ve come across is giving it sick combo times, maybe nerfing normal wind-up a bit but really short comboes so it was…. different from other weapons.

    The light flail
    Much slower, shorter and more akward morning star with a different stab.
    This weapon needs a major overhaul. I’ve been playing with it a lot, to understand it but it just always felt not rewarding enough. For the speed it has, lack of drags or reverse overheads, it just doesn’t reward a successful hit well enough. Damage is shit all across the board, it might be multi purpose but broadsword plus say G-mace would be so much more viable. Also the fact it is primary just makes me wondering why exactly should I take it over of morning star that would allow me to pick a longsword some other anti maa weapon and would as well do the job better.

    I suppose it could as well be given sick combo times but it needs more, it needs to be changed into a secondary. Secondary forcing a shield on you is not all that odd and you could carry two flails to look badass (I think?).

    My final word is that if we take all these primaries that you have to toil with to get a hit through and in the end it’s not all that rewarding (except warhammer), it all just comes down to the question: Why bother, when you can take flanged mace that does pretty much the same, is faster and much more straight forward AND IS A SECONDARY (so you can grab a better primary)? Out of them only the warhammer is worth it if you can drag it and exploit its look-down overheads well enough….

    TL,DR - the bald stuff

    They’re all trash, if you wan’t a viable heavy weapon in this game it has to be a 2 hander, warhammer would be good if they gave it’s range back, but as of now it’s horrible especially with shield. It’s just not fast enough to catch people off guard and not slow enough to catch people off guard. The feints aren’t too good with it and in general it’s just a bad weapon. Any drags you land are because the other player is terrible. The flails are just……bad. AMAZING stabs with both flails but doesn’t make up for the lackluster everything else. I don’t really care if they balance it or not, as then it would pretty much just be the same as any other weapon and not be unique at all except for the animations.



  • @Huggles:

    warhammer would be good if they gave it’s range back,

    Have they reduced warhammer size?
    The bubble has been reduced conciderably.



  • Vanguards, MaA and archers just destroy knights with warhammers. They can atack, turn their back and sprint away and you can’t hit them because the warhammer is so slow and short.



  • Yep ^ this pretty much

    fun stomping weapon though



  • Flail is in a good spot right now, it has been buffed almost every single balance patch since it came out, pls just let it be now.



  • Yeah, I’m a big warhammer fan but man is it frustrating. Loooong recovery times combined with shield lockout times mean you spend a good % of your time simply not being able to do anything.

    At least if it had a quick stab like the mace/HWS or the flail shield punch you could mix it up a bit and catch MaA/Archers/Vans who engage.

    I would love a bit of a size increase in the warhammer - 1.2 would help.

    Oh and it certainly doesn’t have an ‘instant’ overhead. It can be accelerated with a lookdown of course but most good players will still see it’s windup and simply take a step back.



  • I’m fairly sure that you can hit with the first frame of release if you look down-right. The wind-up is 0.45 I believe, just as saber stab so it is quite fast.

    But my opinion might as well be biased by the loads newbs the game is filled right now. It’s hard to say how effective it is when you can’t find a solid opponent and I never really used warhammer before, just now to see how good or bad it is.



  • the flails aren’t bad, the warhammer is complete garbage now, it was actually one of the few weapons where handle hits were justified… like dane axe and morningstar. Morningstar and dane are kind of just ‘ok’ now but nowhere near as good. The grand mace is pretty shit now, it was kind of overpowered before, but now it’s pretty unusable. The pole axe is pretty shit now too since you can’t really drag it to get past anyones parry because the release is so short and comes down quickly, and it’s just easy to parry and swords dominate it.

    There were weapons that needed handle hit nerf, and there are weapons that kind of need that handle hit to be viable.



  • Flails are horrible.



  • You should try feinting stab with flails.



  • I started using the quarterstaff competitively lately, and it’s absolutely devastating, because there are no handle hit tracers on it(it’s essentially one big handle). Not that it should get any, because that would break the weapon, but if you guys are craving any blunt handle hits I would go for it. You can alternate hitting with each side of the weapon, doing handle hits and straight LMBs.



  • Handle hits were only problem for polearms and GM. I don’t think they were all that sick on poleaxe so yeah, maybe it could use a bit of reduction. TB once again overdid it, maybe because we never really said what weapons need to be fixed and what don’t.



  • Warhammer is pretty dogshit now, was never great - but is arguably even worse now with the (nice) handlehit fix. I’ve always kinda liked it but its not a good weapon lol - especially with shield cus it then loses 70% of its drag potential. I genuinely take 1h longsword over warhammer now lol, before i’d be 50/50.

    Needs a buff now imo. Flails are shit too, but honestly I dont care. Always been a novelty weapon



  • @Kreittis:

    You should try feinting stab with flails.

    Why bother with that when you can stab feint HWS and then have a weapon that isnt dogshit, with a shield that isnt dogshit



  • @Triumphant:

    Why bother with that when you can stab feint HWS and then have a weapon that isnt dogshit, with a shield that isnt dogshit

    Because that means you beat them with subpar setup. And beating someone with subpar setup makes you superior.

    Don’t you want to be superior?



  • But surely simply by beating them you are superior? :>

    I love killing shit MAAs with the spwinkler man, that fucking thud sound when you stab them.



  • @Martys:

    Handle hits were only problem for polearms and GM. I don’t think they were all that sick on poleaxe so yeah, maybe it could use a bit of reduction. TB once again overdid it, maybe because we never really said what weapons need to be fixed and what don’t.

    well the combo overhead from the poleaxe hit during windup animation, was pretty crazy after the bubble redux. They must have overdone it because it’s not like the poleaxe isn’t viable anymore, but it’s not that great considering there is a weapon called the messer which can drag much better, has like the same or more range, and does equivalent damage. The poleaxe isn’t great at dragging experienced players because it comes straight down.

    the flails do pretty much suck but you can make do if you just feint/combo feint a lot and use all your stam to kill someone.

    warhammer is garbage.

    gmace was pretty OP like i said when it handle hit, but they did overdo it a bit, it’s pretty useless now and a lot of overheads simply just miss for no apparent reason.

    longsword still viable but not good as SoW IMO but if you work on your drags and accels it definitely CAN be.

    SoW is of course beast mode.

    bearded axe is pretty crap.

    morningstar not as good but it is saved by the stabs



  • @50ShadesofClay:

    morningstar not as good but it is saved by the stabs

    Morning star stabs might be the only attack in this game you can’t block 9/10 times :L. It does shit damage though, and it’s hard to angle it to the unblockable angle in scrims so it’s still a shit weapon.



  • Buff 'em all. It’s sad to see such a devastating weapon like a warhammer being a piece of shit in this game.