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  • @Userper:

    I don’t see the bias. can you point it out to me pls?

    me either what bias



  • Huggles, please point out the bias.



  • Yeah I’d like to see the bias presented too.



  • @SOC:

    The biggest problems of beta chiv/release chiv were like how easy it was to get around shields with like flanged mace and war hammer and falchion and cudgels. The bugs were like cool bugs such as recovering while sprinting. The worst thing I can possibly remember were like perma feint Norse swords and the Dane axe was really good. Halberd was also really fast, but it’s not like

    Shields back then took skill to block and keep up with fast short weapons made for the sole purpose of getting in your face and trying to hack around your shield. It makes sense that the axes and war hammer were optimal choices for getting around shields.

    recovery while sprinting is pretty stupid imho and is clearly a design flaw that only seriously benefits knights as they also had forward chase back then as well. Pre june 2013 had plenty of balance flaws that clearly favored knights, the real reason pre june 2013 was cool was because of how the intened mechanics played out. Everything was useful back then and had a purpose.

    Parrying felt skillful back then and the 120 fov rectangle reference actually mattered. Now you can look anywhere, have crappy footwork, and just throw your parry up and it’ll block most of the time.

    joke game, joke skill ceiling

    “o well huggles you’re just a random joe hurr durr”

    If a random joe can even get into this so called “comp scene” and even stand a chance against some pretty good players the game just isn’t all that skillful.

    The hardest thing in this game is feint reading, and feints are just to limiting of a skill factor to make this game ever truly skillful. It basically trains you to do the opposite of what most games require, to be delayed on your reactions and timing, when blocking drags no problemo because nothing is really hard to parry in this game besides the occasional animation breaking b0ckswing.



  • Like i said, if tbs could put the old pre-june patch chivalry in the beta we could see firsthand what worked better then and what works better now, without rose tinted glasses or trying to go off of memory. It would be an amazing service to this game and the community to do a thing like that. No more arguing about the june patch or the effects of it, just playing it and going “okay, this was better then, that was better then, that was broken then and is now fixed so keep that fix, well this mechanic is slightly better in the current game, but hey this mechanic works much better in the old chivalry because x and x, also the weapon balance now is better for x weapon and x weapon” etc etc. You know what would be even more helpful is to have two different beta clients. One would be kept as the pre june 2013 patch to have as a reference against the live game during the whole patch making phase, and another one to test out bringing stuff from the old game into the new game on the patch we would be building from comparing the new version and the old version during the beta patch process.



  • someone update Chiv+ please



  • @Huggles:

    Shields back then took skill to block and keep up with fast short weapons made for the sole purpose of getting in your face and trying to hack around your shield. It makes sense that the axes and war hammer were optimal choices for getting around shields.

    So weapons that can be used with shields make sense to get around other shields? I still think it takes skill to block with your shield currently but I’m all for stopping the easy bs “back blocks” that happen all the time now. But face hugging and LMB spamming your flanged mace to auto hit around his shield doesn’t take any skill at all, your arm going through his shield. It’s just silly.

    @Huggles:

    recovery while sprinting is pretty stupid imho and is clearly a design flaw that only seriously benefits knights as they also had forward chase back then as well. Pre june 2013 had plenty of balance flaws that clearly favored knights, the real reason pre june 2013 was cool was because of how the intened mechanics played out. Everything was useful back then and had a purpose.

    I agree that it’s a silly bug but it was fun, and IIRC (and I might not) the only way to activate it was to take fall damage while sprinting, so it wasn’t something that “favored knights because of forward chase.” You couldn’t use it during fights. However, stamina drain was not useful nor did it have a purpose because when you ran out of stamina, you just got knocked back and could immediately parry any weapon in the game. Knights need to have many benefits because they have no OP crutches like fast footspeed, archery, dodge, or long fast weapons. It’s much easier for you to land 4 hits on a knight than a knight to land 1 hit on you.

    @Huggles:

    Parrying felt skillful back then and the 120 fov rectangle reference actually mattered. Now you can look anywhere, have crappy footwork, and just throw your parry up and it’ll block most of the time.

    I agree it’s a little too easy to parry now due to matrix parrying, and also how it’s bs when people block stuff from behind, and also blocking multiple hits from one parry is a little too easy right now IMO.

    @Huggles:

    The hardest thing in this game is feint reading, and feints are just to limiting of a skill factor to make this game ever truly skillful. It basically trains you to do the opposite of what most games require, to be delayed on your reactions and timing, when blocking drags no problemo because nothing is really hard to parry in this game besides the occasional animation breaking b0ckswing.

    I think feint reading is really easy honestly, maybe because I’ve played since closed beta and taught my self how to do it almost as a natural muscle memory now. Right now I think the hardest things to parry are delayed drags.



  • hardest thing to parry is backswings when playing with 100+ ping

    shit doesnt even animate



  • Especially after you get kicked and stagger or teleport around a bit.



  • @SOC:

    So weapons that can be used with shields make sense to get around other shields? I still think it takes skill to block with your shield currently but I’m all for stopping the easy bs “back blocks” that happen all the time now. But face hugging and LMB spamming your flanged mace to auto hit around his shield doesn’t take any skill at all, your arm going through his shield. It’s just silly.

    those were all parriable you just had to look back to the side they were attacking and side step to create more distance hence more skillful blocking required. The only truly “broken” shield back then was the buckler. The rest were way more intuitive than the shit we have now where the box doesn’t even match the model and goes off into four corners and sides.

    It actually allowed a real way to counter shields instead of just stamina drain gimmicks we have to rely on now because shields are immune to everything else. Regardless of how non viable shields are currently, they’re still pretty stupid in that regard where you are basically immune to everything if you can manage your stamina well.

    Also if sprint during recovery didn’t work during combat which would be the bug I thought you were refferring to, then I don’t really care about it either :P

    Forward chase was really broken back then though because it didn’t give much space at all for vanguards to use their kiting tacs. Knights never needed forward chase, maa just needed a base footspeed nerf but maa base speed was fine back then anyhoot. It was just the ability to spam dodge that made is seem so op and stupid to fight against.

    Archers were uber OP pre patch too

    because of forward chase and 0 bubble knights were the dominant class as they could catch up to anyone on the battlefield and get into facehug range handle hitting, hit trading, and dragging their way to victory. As of right now I honestly think handle hits weren’t bad at all as they at least made parrying a challenge lol and I wouldn’t mind forward chase being brought back since the bubble increases but I hate the bubble and would rather see forward chase kept out and the bubble removed.

    Pre june 13 feel to it without the knight hit trade meta.



  • Archers were actually kinada bad back then because of how unreliable the projectile drop was, it was also harder to hit, as if the hitbox was smaller, might be related to the bubble?



  • @Huggles:

    those were all parriable you just had to look back to the side they were attacking and side step to create more distance hence more skillful blocking required. The only truly “broken” shield back then was the buckler. The rest were way more intuitive than the shit we have now where the box doesn’t even match the model and goes off into four corners and sides.

    Yes, it was parriable and blockable but it was really silly IMO and felt pretty inconsistent for awhile as we were all learning the game, but then you had weapons like falchion and cudgel which were almost impossible to block sometimes, and the hatchet and Dane axe were nightmares too. I don’t think it should be that easy to get around shields, but I also don’t think it should be impossible. I think kicks need to be more consistent and possibly heavy kicks come a tad faster after feinting. But there was no distance game back then for shields as there was no bubble and we had forward chase: often, using a shield meant you wanted to get as close as possible to the opponent and face hug LMB spam.

    @Huggles:

    It actually allowed a real way to counter shields instead of just stamina drain gimmicks we have to rely on now because shields are immune to everything else. Regardless of how non viable shields are currently, they’re still pretty stupid in that regard where you are basically immune to everything if you can manage your stamina well.

    I think kicks need to be the counter play for shields. They sacrifice so much since they can’t riposte, so kicks need to be designed to be the counter instead of focusing everything on getting around them or stamina draining them. They’re supposed to be defensive and slow you down. It is pretty hard to feint to kick good shield users so I do think feint to kick needs to come faster and kicks need to cost way less stamina, and be more consistent.

    @Huggles:

    Forward chase was really broken back then though because it didn’t give much space at all for vanguards to use their kiting tacs. Knights never needed forward chase, maa just needed a base footspeed nerf but maa base speed was fine back then anyhoot. It was just the ability to spam dodge that made is seem so op and stupid to fight against.

    Kiting still isn’t a thing, never was even before this chase buff patch, I don’t know why people say it is. I think forward chase benefits every class that is pushing hard for the initiative and the player who can combo feint to parry well. This means every class benefits from it well, but also makes back pedaling something that can be punished as I’ve said before. I agree that MaAs needed footspeed nerfs even back then, but instead they got buffed and people still say “But MaAs were nerfed” when really all they’ve ever received are buffs with the removal of forward chase, CftP sucking now, and the official ability to dodge out of flinch permanently now. Not to mention nerfing longsword and SoW buffed MaAs. Okay, well, no, they were nerfed with the broadsword nerfs but so were knights that use it. But instead of nerfing broad they should nerf MaAs directly. By doing so it would indirectly open up more weapons for them as they would drastically have to change tactics.

    @Huggles:

    Archers were uber OP pre patch too

    Archers were always OP but only got more OP as they were buffed with missile speed increased and crossbow buffs. Thankfully the cudgel was nerfed and now they got rid of back stab and removed projectile flinch and even some bow nerfs, but it’s no where near enough. Also being able to switch weapons out of flinch is a huge benefit for archers.

    @Huggles:

    because of forward chase and 0 bubble knights were the dominant class as they could catch up to anyone on the battlefield and get into facehug range handle hitting, hit trading, and dragging their way to victory. As of right now I honestly think handle hits weren’t bad at all as they at least made parrying a challenge lol and I wouldn’t mind forward chase being brought back since the bubble increases but I hate the bubble and would rather see forward chase kept out and the bubble removed.

    The only reason knights were so dominant back then is because MaAs were still being discovered and learned. The skill cap was lower back then because of the natural rate at which you master the game over time. True, vanguards needed buffs but just not in this way. The thing about the sword knights before the nerfs is that they didn’t excel at anything. They had no inherent weaknesses, yes, but they also had no inherent strengths. This means they have even match ups across the board but were also beaten by players with skill. That doesn’t make it OP at all. You could beat them with any weapon in the game provided you could match or best their skill. I think the game should be all about footworking, dragging, feinting, outplaying your opponent to victory. That’s the very definition of balance, especially considering it’s not like the swords hard countered anything. The fact that knights rely so much on skillful mechanics to win is how it should be and why they need those benefits. As far as hit trades go, it’s just the by product you have when you make CftP suck which I’m pretty sure most of us really wanted changed. Now that it was changed, I think we want it back to the old way since we found that the consequences weren’t as fun as we imagined. I still don’t personally have problems with hit trades but I do have problems with flinch being consistent (you can flinch SoW users far easier than a maul user), and with CftP we would just notice these things less as it wouldn’t happen as often.

    As for the bubble and forward chase, fine, leave forward chase out but nerf MaA footspeed to a value that was lower than it was before it was buffed. Then focus on giving them team battle purpose outside a firepot, and make firepot more engaging for both players. As I keep saying, make a brief cool down where MaAs can’t attack or parry after dodging so you can punish bad dodges. Make stamina values overall go up so we’re not running out as much. Make MaAs unable to dodge after being flinched. I think bubble might need even more reduction but I definitely don’t want to go back to look behind you to parry hatchet days.

    The amount of effort I have to put in to play knight (without messer or maul) well vs the amount of effort I have to put in to play MaA well is really stupid. MaAs are really easy. If you can play knight or vanguard perfectly then you’re already good at MaA. If you can play MaA perfectly then you’re going to get owned as a knight or vanguard because you don’t have any crutches to forgive your mistakes. Larger health is far less forgiving when you compare it to a class that never gets hit anyway.



  • meh. all this arguing about how it was or wasnt back then. lets see it in the beta so we can see and play it again first hand.



  • The reason people can never be happy is because they think the past better than it was, the present worse than it is and the future less resolved than it will be.



  • The main difference was smoother animations and the possibility to take out 10 people by yourself. Other than that it was unbalanced as hell.



  • @Xylvion:

    The main difference was smoother animations and the possibility to take out 10 people by yourself. Other than that it was unbalanced as hell.

    sow stab feints were 2 gud\

    i remember being able to cftp 5 times in a row



  • @SOC:

    The only reason knights were so dominant back then is because MaAs were still being discovered and learned. The skill cap was lower back then because of the natural rate at which you master the game over time. True, vanguards needed buffs but just not in this way. The thing about the sword knights before the nerfs is that they didn’t excel at anything. They had no inherent weaknesses, yes, but they also had no inherent strengths. This means they have even match ups across the board but were also beaten by players with skill. That doesn’t make it OP at all. You could beat them with any weapon in the game provided you could match or best their skill. I think the game should be all about footworking, dragging, feinting, outplaying your opponent to victory. That’s the very definition of balance, especially considering it’s not like the swords hard countered anything. The fact that knights rely so much on skillful mechanics to win is how it should be and why they need those benefits. As far as hit trades go, it’s just the by product you have when you make CftP suck which I’m pretty sure most of us really wanted changed. Now that it was changed, I think we want it back to the old way since we found that the consequences weren’t as fun as we imagined. I still don’t personally have problems with hit trades but I do have problems with flinch being consistent (you can flinch SoW users far easier than a maul user), and with CftP we would just notice these things less as it wouldn’t happen as often.

    Old ls was definitely op. Not because of the htk’s but because the oh would be absolutely retarded if people could drag as well back then as they do now. .5 windup and .65 release is just way too retarded as far as instahit/delay windups go. The current .525 windup and .6 release already works on decent players frequently.



  • @swagfox:

    Old ls was definitely op. Not because of the htk’s but because the oh would be absolutely retarded if people could drag as well back then as they do now. .5 windup and .65 release is just way too retarded as far as instahit/delay windups go. The current .525 windup and .6 release already works on decent players frequently.

    I was doing and reading perfect drags back then no problem from it. It was the most well balanced weapon in the game that no one could whine or cry about. The SoW was still better. If we must, keep its windup and release but increase its damage so it’s 3 HTK on knights with 3 torso overheads, 2 vanguard HTK with 2 torso overheads. The longsword should be versatile with a heavy focus on overheads, SoW for stabs, and messer for slashing. I haven’t played much messer since this patch but it was 2 shotting vanguards with overhead stab torso hits and vanguards had no problems with it, so they definitely won’t have a problem with double overhead longsword considering how slow it is. SoW would still continue to be the vanguard counter.


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