E-sports or lack thereof



  • I find it surprising that this game doesnt have a presence in e-sports.
    Is there something I’m missing?
    I’d figure duel matches something similar to hearthstone would be fun to watch (hearthstone I use as an example as I watch both twitch and youtube matches).
    I’m still fairly low rank, I play sparingly but I recognize the role skill plays in this game and I find it entertaining to watch. Is there an underground e-sports arena with competitions going on I dont know about? If not, there should be…
    Thoughts?



  • Hahahaha good one



  • Well you sure did open a can of worms….
    The game will never be an E-Sport. It had a very brief window of opportunity but was blown by far too many bugs, exploits and a huge lack of admin support. Then came the bubble patch of doom that about killed the game dead in its tracks. Long story short, that ship sailed over a year ago.



  • @Retsnom:

    Well you sure did open a can of worms….
    The game will never be an E-Sport. It had a very brief window of opportunity but was blown by far too many bugs, exploits and a huge lack of admin support. Then came the bubble patch of doom that about killed the game dead in its tracks. Long story short, that ship sailed over a year ago.

    Not to mention the large amount of clans that left or disbanded due to “the bubble patch of doom”. We used to have a competitive community, now we have only a few that only seem to do a few scrims with the same couple other clans. I remember a time seeing a lot of activity on here for tournaments and clan guys all over the place. Now, it’s like seeing a clan is just a few guys teaming in pub FFAs.



  • Bah, you guys are jaded.
    Hexen, you’re 100th vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot1CyH_AnMM is exactly what I’m talking about. I’m not frickin’ trolling!!

    The bubble patch of doom was probably before my time, so that said are you guys telling me its a case of population? Because I still think theres a fair amount of skill involved in the game. 'Bubble patch of doom’ed or not.
    Think its safe to say that thers no underground youtube fight club going on here though…. surprising.



  • I, too, came after the fabled bubble patch of doom (I’m guessing this is the same infamous June 2013 patch).

    I recall reading some huge drama about a TBS-sponsored tourney where people were having difficulty with a particular archer who looked like he was aimbotting. That tournament probably ensured that TBS would never sponsor any community-handled event for at the very least a good four years, likely never.

    Even if Chivalry 2 never comes, we’ve at least seen that a good FPS melee game is possible. Before Chivalry, the closest things we had were HL1 and Source mods, which just aren’t quite the same despite being even more polished than this $25 game lol…

    As a US West level 37, it’s hard enough to find a decent pub with acceptable ping, nevermind finding an actual scrim or something resembling one. 90% of the servers are low-rank only, Official Duel is at best half-filled with decent players and most often filled with breezes, West TO is awesome when filled but it has peak times which may not coincide with my free time on weekdays, Lg duels would be awesome if I didn’t get 100 ping…

    It really is in TBS’s best interests to start anew with Chivalry 2 if they want an actual and robust competitive scene. However, before they undertake such an endeavor, I really hope they hire a lot more man and brainpower to forge a much more solid game. Chivalry is their first commercial product, and the fact that it is their “first” really, really shows.



  • The game had many opportunities to become an e-sport, but they failed.

    The biggest chance was the Torn Banner sponsored tournament a long time ago, I don’t know exactly when it happened as it was before I started playing. However people suspected an specific archer of cheating. Before/after the tournament started I have no idea, a lot of evidence was brought forth to support the accusations. Whether or not the evidence proved the archer was cheating was never officially decided. Most people in the tournament wanted this archer banned. However Torn Banner refused to ban the archer. Because of this most clans dropped out of the tournament, leaving only two left I believe. The tournament continued despite there only being two teams and all the prize money went to the clan with the suspected cheating archer.

    This caused a massive amount of drama. People began abusing all the players in the archer’s clan, refusing to scrim them and basically bullying all of them. People also started bashing Torn Banner for not banning the archer, so TB got a lot of flak from this tourny that they sponsored. This was the first massive fuck-up.

    The second was the June patch. The June patch basically nerfed the game into oblivion, dramatically lowering the skill ceiling. The reason this patch went through was because at this time, there were a lot of noobs on the forum crying and begging for nerfs. Of course they outnumbered players who actually knew what they were talking about, so Torn Banner catered to the majority and nerfed the game. Because of that patch, the game’s comp scene almost completely died. Many top clans disbanded and stopped playing the game. Many notable players who had contributed a lot to the game quit playing as well. It would take 6 months after the patch for Torn Banner to finally realize their mistake and they started listening to the remaining competitive players left on the forums. Because of this the game was massively improved with awesome balance and mechanical changes that dramatically increased the skill ceiling and fun of the game, leaving it in an even better state than it was pre-June patch, which is the state the game is in now. However old clans and players still aren’t coming back, so the competitive scene is still incredibly weak.

    The third fuck-up would be from THE FILTHY YUROPEANS (I jest). I don’t know much but apparently ESL started up for them. However for some reason people just didn’t play in ESL and it eventually died.

    But ultimately the biggest fuck-up that has killed any chance of this game becoming an e-sport is simply Torn Banner themselves. They never have up to this point have done anything really competition focused for the game besides the sponsored tournament. They haven’t supported any tournaments since, they haven’t given any advertising to the comp scene, they don’t support any competitive streams, they haven’t put any competitive focus into any of the new maps they’ve made which is why they’re not played in scrims or in tournaments and they’ve basically left competitive players to their own resources. So unless they seriously kick it into high-gear or focus on the competitive scene in Chiv 2, there isn’t any chance this game will ever become an e-sport.



  • I don’t think its interesting enough to watch.

    Most popular esports support casters providing a narrative to spectators.

    Dota, for example, is a huge narrative. From the picking, laning, how they rotate, try to find farm, constantly making high level trade offs. Counterstrike, even, you can tell a story. Where people rotate, how they spend their money between rounds, plus its rapid fire action.

    Have you ever tried casting a scrim? Its just boring to watch and hard to make a narrative out of LTS. TO is a little easier, but with people constantly re spawning nothing looks definitive. In CS people die, everyone dies, round ends. In chiv its just a constant charge and much slashing.

    I also think chiv has too many chance based rock-paper-scissors interactions for people to take it seriously, along with an odd amount of presumably lag caused variability in the outcome of interactions.

    It was just never designed to be a competitive game. It was created to be a lowest common denominator fun hack’n’slash with a surprising amount of depth - which is what it is. But i’d estimate it takes about 500 hours to get ‘really good’ with a particular class and weapon, as opposed to counterstrike or dota where at 500 hours you’re still trash.



  • @Flippy:

    The game had many opportunities to become an e-sport, but they failed.

    The biggest chance was the Torn Banner sponsored tournament a long time ago, I don’t know exactly when it happened as it was before I started playing. However people suspected an specific archer of cheating. Before/after the tournament started I have no idea, a lot of evidence was brought forth to support the accusations. Whether or not the evidence proved the archer was cheating was never officially decided. Most people in the tournament wanted this archer banned. However Torn Banner refused to ban the archer. Because of this most clans dropped out of the tournament, leaving only two left I believe. The tournament continued despite there only being two teams and all the prize money went to the clan with the suspected cheating archer.

    Can we at least get what happened straight?

    Bigs wasn’t allowed to play in the tournament. He didn’t play. The bullshit that happened was pretty much every team except Lg conspired to leave the tournament if faucheur wasn’t disqualified due to Park Ranger Dan being afk in spectator mode after we won the match against Vq. There were no definitive rules stating what would happen in case something like that happened, and there were also rules stating that judges and referees were responsible for kicking all spectators prior to match beginning. One of the refs in charge of that match actually was aware of it (and admitted to being aware of it) and never did his job. We also brought forth a plethora of evidence in order to support that Dan was. in fact, afk.

    It was after that moment that TBS decided to revoke their involvement in the tournament.



  • TBS pretty much fucked the whole thing up though. They banned bigs from the tourney and he didn’t even cheat in the damn tourney. And then didn’t Interitus have like 4 infractions and they just ignored those? Just poor decisions from an inexperienced company. Can’t hurt to try to start something else up.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    Can we at least get what happened straight?

    Bigs wasn’t allowed to play in the tournament. He didn’t play. The bullshit that happened was pretty much every team except Lg conspired to leave the tournament if faucheur wasn’t disqualified due to Park Ranger Dan being afk in spectator mode after we won the match against Vq. There were no definitive rules stating what would happen in case something like that happened, and there were also rules stating that judges and referees were responsible for kicking all spectators prior to match beginning. One of the refs in charge of that match actually was aware of it (and admitted to being aware of it) and never did his job. We also brought forth a plethora of evidence in order to support that Dan was. in fact, afk.

    It was after that moment that TBS decided to revoke their involvement in the tournament.

    Welp, I dunno then. I was told that bigs was allowed to play and that’s what made everyone drop out, but woe is me.

    Also this,

    I also think chiv has too many chance based rock-paper-scissors interactions for people to take it seriously, along with an odd amount of presumably lag caused variability in the outcome of interactions.

    Good god quit posting. If the game seriously was rock-paper-scissors, everyone would have a 1/3 chance of winning. And yet there are players who almost always win their duels and clans which almost always win their scrims. There are shit-tier scrubs and then there are god-tier clan fags. Just stop.



  • @Karasu:

    TBS pretty much fucked the whole thing up though. They banned bigs from the tourney and he didn’t even cheat in the damn tourney. And then didn’t Interitus have like 4 infractions and they just ignored those? Just poor decisions from an inexperienced company. Can’t hurt to try to start something else up.

    TBS had no involvement int he tournament other than their donation contribution and the ruling of Bigs being banned. Everything was organized by Height and his team of refs he assigned.



  • e-sports?



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    TBS had no involvement int he tournament other than their donation contribution and the ruling of Bigs being banned. Everything was organized by Height and his team of refs he assigned.

    Ah well then just botching the bigs situation. Either way the point stands of course.



  • The game never had the player base to support a sustained e-sports culture. For a bunch of reasons, even before ‘the patch’ i didn’t have the numbers imo. It never had a chance for e-sports, it is a highly niche game.

    Basically, game players with very high skill/time/money to sink into practicing a game will flock to the games that have decent coin. DOTA2 is the game with the coin and is taking all the attention at the moment.



  • @Flippy:

    Good god quit posting. If the game seriously was rock-paper-scissors, everyone would have a 1/3 chance of winning. And yet there are players who almost always win their duels and clans which almost always win their scrims. There are shit-tier scrubs and then there are god-tier clan fags. Just stop.

    Specific INTERACTIONS are rock paper scissors type. And they are. Yes there are ways to try and avoid being in that situation, but if you ever get there its essentially a RPC for if you get hit or not.

    THe next relevant point would be when do those RPC states occur, how often. If it were extremely rare, like a niche situation, it doesnt impact the integrity of the game/system of variables.

    But the RPC gambles are making up the core of combat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgPEZ3pN8eg

    I can talk more about this but its starting to get TL:DR.

    And as for scrims, the interactions that decide hits in a 1v1 make the 1v1s highly unpredictable, but with scrims having more variables than 1v1s, those specific types of interactions have less impact.

    So, if we were talking about chiv as an esport, i dont think the consistency of clan scrims is the problem but the inability to make spectating interesting, and the low skill ceiling and RPC interactions makes competitive 1v1s unsuitable.

    I think if people COULD cast some kind of chiv clan scrims in an interesting way, Get that media out there and organize a league, a niche kind of competitive scene could arise. it will never be an ‘esport’ or have the huge following that may have happened if some changes were made.

    For the record i don’t think the stuff i’ve described and admit to disliking about chiv (chance based interactions) should be changed. In an ideal world sure, but like, it won’t / couldnt practically occur in this one, and the game would have to be changed such that it would no longer be chivalry. MAybe in chiv 2, and maybe that could be an esport. They’d have to change a ton to make it feel more competitive.



  • Im going to ignore the rock paper scissor retard posts here and reply to op:

    The game IS very competitive and we have a good EU competitive scene atm, but its not esport because:

    1. Small playerbase, this was completely new genre and a new indie game so its hard to get alot of players, plus the game is very hardcore and not noob friendly so its not really for your average casual these days

    2. Lack of support, Torn Banner never really did anything for the competitive community, which is a shame.

    Maybe with Chiv 2, when the game appeals to more people with stuff like matchmaking etc.

    There is no luck or randomness in this game the better player/team wins everytime

    Lions currently undefeated for 3+ months in EU scene and I won 6 tournaments and Sophax 4 you think thats luck?



  • Its not to late one can lead us!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgcovIu3k9o



  • @Sharpest:

    And as for scrims, the interactions that decide hits in a 1v1 make the 1v1s highly unpredictable

    It’s not unpredictable, better players always win.



  • @Sharpest:

    Specific INTERACTIONS are rock paper scissors type. And they are. Yes there are ways to try and avoid being in that situation, but if you ever get there its essentially a RPC for if you get hit or not.

    THe next relevant point would be when do those RPC states occur, how often. If it were extremely rare, like a niche situation, it doesnt impact the integrity of the game/system of variables.

    But the RPC gambles are making up the core of combat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgPEZ3pN8eg

    I can talk more about this but its starting to get TL:DR.

    And as for scrims, the interactions that decide hits in a 1v1 make the 1v1s highly unpredictable, but with scrims having more variables than 1v1s, those specific types of interactions have less impact.

    So, if we were talking about chiv as an esport, i dont think the consistency of clan scrims is the problem but the inability to make spectating interesting, and the low skill ceiling and RPC interactions makes competitive 1v1s unsuitable.

    I think if people COULD cast some kind of chiv clan scrims in an interesting way, Get that media out there and organize a league, a niche kind of competitive scene could arise. it will never be an ‘esport’ or have the huge following that may have happened if some changes were made.

    For the record i don’t think the stuff i’ve described and admit to disliking about chiv (chance based interactions) should be changed. In an ideal world sure, but like, it won’t / couldnt practically occur in this one, and the game would have to be changed such that it would no longer be chivalry. MAybe in chiv 2, and maybe that could be an esport. They’d have to change a ton to make it feel more competitive.

    Why do people believe in this shit? Is it just an excuse for them being bad?


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