Discussion thread for "Ideas for Balance Patch"



  • Let’s discuss the difference in opinions in this thread instead of the other one.

    If anyone feels like copy-pasting over to this one about what has been discussed (don’t copy paste the Issue: / Solution: text).

    That way we can leave that thread from being cluttered (and eventually a mod can clean it up hopefully).



  • My idea better than urs stfu nab heueee you can’t tell ur pinion hueee

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lQcKiFy_DM



  • Why don’t you put that in your sig if you use it in pretty much every post.



  • tbf its worth the extra forum visibility just for the chimp wielding anduril, the flame of the west



  • Actually I’d like to know what other ppl think of my projectile block idea:

    @Odeken:

    This has been said but I am re-emphasizing it:

    Issue: Archers dominate without needing much skill. The very good archers are untouchable.

    Possible Fixes: Nerf damage to body/limb shots. OR Take away aiming reticule and make the arrow aim randomly in the general direction the bow is facing. OR increase reload time with a damage nerf. OR make arrows / projectiles blockable by well timed parries.
    For their melee weapons, I mean the nerf bat needs swinging there is nobody I can’t easily take down using that shortsword. The sabre’s animation is off and it has more reach than the weapon shows.

    Argument for blocking projectiles with RMB: Everything in this game is more or less skill based. Every time you die (excluding bugs/lag) it is your fault. This is not the case when you are shot from half way across the map. You worked hard to get the abilities you have and be able to fight well, but being shot by a rank 0 archer who just clicked lmb from a mile away is just irritating and demotivating. If you were able to at least parry an incoming projectile, you could teach yourself to look for archers shooting at you and learn when to parry. Just like you taught yourself how to watch for feints and swooping attacks, parrying arrows will be another skill set to learn. It won’t be OP because it wouldn’t be easy to block an arrow as you have to take into consideration travel time, and recognize when the archer released the projectile, but it would at least be a start into making the game fair so those of us who run with shields on our back can switch to other things like throwing knives or axes. It would also add another interesting tactic to the table. Do I try to dodge/weave back and forth and hope the archer doesn’t hit me, or do I face the archer and try to block the projectile.
    Archers will also have to implement timing tactics. After being shot by tens of thousands of arrows, I know exactly when the archer will shoot the next arrow. I hear him shoot the arrow, I run straight at him until I see his bow pulled back and I know exactly when he is able to release that next arrow. If I could RMB to block the arrows, I would know exactly when to RMB block. This means the archer would have to think about timing when shooting the arrow instead of just lobbing them off as fast as he can. Maybe he waits an extra second while the person panics and blocks before shooting. It adds an extra interesting level to the gameplay and at least makes fighting archers more interesting.



  • Pointless dude, first arrow are to fast for seeing them properly, second when i archer hit you, most of the time it’s in your back or when you’re fighting someone else lol, this wouldn’t nerf archer enough, 50% less damage is good, i would have remove the fuking flinch to personally but apparently it’s not a common idea lel.



  • You can totally tell when they fire and when to block an arrow, or a throwing knife, or a throwing axe, or even a javelin. It ain’t easy but it also ain’t easy being cheesy, and I do that just fine!



  • If you’re not in a teamfight, I think being able to parry arrows will be more than humanly possible. You see the archer pull back, you count those milliseconds in your head and then steel yourself. Even if the arrow itself is super fast, you’ll hear the shot go. There’s no feints with arrows, just go by your reflex to your heart’s content. Throwables are able to be parried in DW and, thus, you will almost never land a shuriken on a player who knows of that mechanic and is very good at CMW since the animation itself is pre-determined (Viking throwables are a little tougher since they can be delayed and thrown whenever).

    I can’t help but feel biased when I say I would like this change as I love playing without shields and archer is my least favorite class (as is the case for most of us). Javelins would be a lot more manageable as well. But I have a lingering feeling that being able to parry all projectiles would just make Archers a bit underwhelming in many cases. The skill ceiling for melee classes would be raised, but what can the archer do against a player who’s good enough to parry all projectiles 1v1? There’s no dragging or feinting. Then again, maybe that’s exactly what is needed to make them that much more reliant on big, strong Knights to vanguard the front lines for him to shoot behind from, thus being an actual support class.

    Here’s an idea I had concerning archers to have them require more skill and be more of a supporty class:

    Issue: Archers. Arrows. They are too dominant of a class and can be very “anti-fun” for the melee guys. Right now, it feels like the archers belong to this game.
    Solution: I’m rather fond of War of the Rose’s archery (to be fair, the only footage I saw of it was from TotalBiscuit). Basically, an archer pulls back his bow. There is a short window of time where the archer is completely focused and his arrow will deal maximum damage and shoot completely straight.

    With Chivalry, perhaps we can have this same “optimal” timing for arrows. Not only will it deal maximum damage, it will also be required for flinching melee classes. Arrows shot too early or too late will deal lesser damage, be less accurate, and not flinch. This ups the skill ceiling for both archers (who will have to weigh their options and accustom their shots to timings, especially in TO between sniping archers and supporting your knights below) and melee (they can “time” or “sense” when an archer is going for a flinch shot by reading his body language and start dodging/dancing/weaving accordingly).

    Additionally, slightly nerf torso shots and moderately nerf leg/arm shots. Maybe add stamina costs to drawing and whatnot, make each draw of the bow count and have archers really think about going for quick chip damage shots, killing headshots, or the guaranteed flinch shot.

    –-

    On another topic, here are my ideas concerning parry knockback and tweaking feints (possibly drags as well):

    Issue: Parry knockback is very inconsistent.
    Solution: Make them more consistent based on the weapon being swung and on the parrying player’s movement input. Sprinting forward and parrying will knockback you back the least while backpedaling and parrying will knock you back the greatest distance. Simply walking forward will be a lesser version of the former, and standing still gives you a medium amount of knockback. That being said, Vanguard weapons should knockback players more than most weapons.

    Feints.

    Note: HTK means hit-to-kill requirement (e.g. SoW has 3 HTK when you use stabs against knights, 2 HTK versus Vanguard).

    Across the board, maybe a slight and dynamic feint damage nerf. The later you feint, the less damage your next attack within the next 0.5 second will deal, up to ~10 less damage depending on weapon (e.g. for Sword of War, let’s have it scale per weapon). So, depending on what weapon is used, a guy that is hit by late feint(s) -> attack may be able to take one more HTK than a guy who just got hit by normal attacks.

    Scenario: Three SoW stabs will kill a Knight, maybe even two normal stabs and one feint -> stab will kill a Knight, but two feint -> stabs and one normal stab will leave the guy living with like 5 hp or so. If you had them panic parry with a super quick feint, your incoming punishment attack will deal basically full damage. Perhaps adjust the numbers so that a feint->stab + 2 normal stabs will kill a Knight (typically 3 stabs to kill a knight) but a feint->stab + stab will leave a Vanguard with 1-9 hp depending on timing (typically 2 stabs to kill a Vanguard). I think stuff like that would make weapons a lot more dynamic and less “by the numbers”.

    The damage penalty should be different amongst the weapons, especially with 1-handers in mind. Make the damage reduction extremely negligible (something like 3 less damage on latest possible feint) on very readable weapons like Grand Mace, Zweihander, Maul, etc. so that their HTK remains the same and thus not really affected by this change. On the other hand, a feint with HWS guarantees an additional HTK requirement, but three feints are required to guarantee two extra HTKs. However, all this is ignored with headshots (two paragraphs below).**

    Headshots** ignore feint damage penalties, so the feinter will have to choose between aiming for the headshot and possibly getting the attack evaded by a sidestep or just go for the easy LMB hit that may require one more HTK to finish off his opponent. Feints will still be just as useful as they are now without any complete mechanic overhauls.

    Maybe dragged attacks will also follow the same rule, similar to DW except to a much lesser and more subtle extent (instead of dragging reducing your damage in half, it only does so by like 3 points or so depending on your weapon, retaining the same HTK for most weapon/classes and for all “non-draggable” weapons).

    Nova did bring up a good point imo that, if this feint change were implemented, an opponent would simply just have to turn back and face downward to guarantee that he won’t get headshotted. Perhaps hitting the back torso/head would also result in penalty-free dmage? I’m not certain how good or spotty Chivalry’s backstab hit detection is though (TF2’s was/is absolutely horrible).



  • The other thing about feinting is that it is simply not imbalanced in team play at all.

    Because of that, experienced comp players don’t feel the need to change feints any more except for very minute changes.

    Personally, I think the parry box is too big, making use of real-time swings isn’t as effective as simply feinting, because blocking is just too easy and doesn’t require much accuracy. This would help for people’s complaints about stamina being too limiting, as there would be another viable option to attempt (and less stamina intensive).



  • Hm, would my proposed feint change drastically affect team play that much though? It’s not affecting any timings or windows (though I believe SoW in particular needs a stab tweak) and, depending on the damage number tweaking, probably won’t affect HTK often in anything outside of 1v1. I really wish I did have an extensive comp experience so I could perhaps see for myself if such a change really would be too much or just completely off the ballpark as a good change. In my pubstar eyes though, it seems like a change that would benefit 1v1 situations, duels, and leave team fighting relatively untouched, especially concerning heavy weapons and when you mix and match different classes with different weapons clashing each other.

    I am in full agreement with your view on the parry box. I really wish there was a difference in low attack, medium attack, and high attacks like in your traditional fighting game, only with leg attacks being significantly weaker so riposte foot stab isn’t insta-win but more of a “guaranteed” hit/good option to possibly start comboing and gaining the initiative. Combine that with controllable parry knockbacks via movement input + crouching input, and you’d be able to control your footwork and your enemy’s as well to a larger extent, giving players more to think about. That being said, I unfortunately think it’s too radical of a change in a majority of people’s eyes. It really would be a big thing to adjust to.

    I also heavily agree with your previously stated point on special flinch times for special weapons. Most 1hs should be 0.8, most 2hs should be 0.9, exceptions should be made for the likes of QStaff, Zweihander, Maul, and maybe a few others I can not recall at the time.

    Nova, what do you think about the numerous proposed archer changes, from conditional/completely absent flinching to accuracy values, etc.? I know that you don’t like the idea of a flat 50% damage decrease. I agree; it’s too much of a “band aid fix” that may not address the other problems of the class. Yes, archer damage should be lower in general, but their amazing flinching and general attack timing omnipresence and ease needs to be looked at more than anything.

    I’m enjoying our discourse, I like that you explain yourself usually to a good amount rather than just rely on “i has more hours than u, nub.”



  • @a:

    Nova, what do you think about the numerous proposed archer changes, from conditional/completely absent flinching to accuracy values, etc.? I know that you don’t like the idea of a flat 50% damage decrease. I agree; it’s too much of a “band aid fix” that may not address the other problems of the class. Yes, archer damage should be lower in general, but their amazing flinching and general attack timing omnipresence and ease needs to be looked at more than anything.

    50% damage nerf isn’t a band-aid fix. It’s just retarded and solves nothing except to make the class not even desirable. As of now archer’s possible damage per second is definitely not close to being too high.

    Copy and pasting this. I wouldn’t even necessarily use all of these simultaneously, but there are many options to reduce the effectiveness of archers / allow for more counter-play.

    @NoVaLombardia:

    • Arm shots should not be torso shots, and should be counted as leg hits. Leg / Arm damage should be reduced by 10%. Knights should have more resistance to broadheads in general.
    • Buff shields to be useful in melee in general (for knights, they’re supposed to get a class perk from using shields ffs), and fix the swing speeds.
    • Buff Smoke Pots, also don’t make them a sprite if you don’t have to. This can be abused for vision in certain areas.
    • Swapping to Smoke should be faster
    • Rate of fire should be much faster, like throwing knives.
    • Range should be similar to firepot.
    • You should not be able to scan through smoke with your reticule.
    • Pushing through smoke should have some risk, like lingering impaired vision for 1-2 seconds.
    • Fix smoke pots glitching on certain terrain, resulting in a lack of smoke coming out, rendering itself useless.
    • Smoke’s should blind an enemy on a direct hit.
    • Smoke should not destroy a pavise --_
    • Add more cover to maps in general, especially some TO maps.
    • Remove Backstab bonus – add backstab to daggers in general.
    • Stamina drain on bow weapons based on how long you delay the shot. Larger bow = more stam drain.
    • Disable flinch in release on projectiles.
    • Revert crossbow reload speed buff back to the old values.
    • Crossbows must remain still to make an accurate shot.
    • Buff Pavise so that it is not a piece of garbage. Make more durable, not so easy to glitch out, able to restock and deploy up to 2 pavise per archer. Pavise should not be destroyed after death.
    • Allow left-hand / right-hand swaps for shields.
    • Change firepots to be more like a molotov; give a Wick Bomb throwable that would have the potential to 1-shot an archer, but do far less damage to other classes. It’d be much easier to get a deadly throw on an archer due to their slow movement speed while aiming.

    –----

    I’m enjoying our discourse, I like that you explain yourself usually to a good amount rather than just rely on “i has more hours than u, nub.”

    Not only do I have ~1600 hourth, but I altho have many 1sth plathe tournament winth, therefore my thoughtsth are thupreme and you should bow before me…

    … tthcrub



  • So, rather than slap a big sausage in archer orifices, we actually buff the other three class’s anti-archer tools (shields, legs = only exposed part of shield so less damage on legs/arms only makes sense, faster CS:GO smokes would be awesome).

    Dagger backstabs… this sounds incredibly fun for MAA, maybe too fun… hehehe.

    Crossbow remaining still for accurate shot is an amazing idea.

    Hm, should flinches be removed ENTIRELY from projectiles? The game would certainly be more fun for me, and probably 90% of the people who play this game. Would it really detriment archers and/or balance enough to make conditional flinches the better option? Gah, I’m drooling about no flinches. I think that just the additional “fun factor” to be had from not getting arrow flinched is a good enough reason to take it out completely now. At any rate, I don’t think there will be much opposition to the notion that projectiles should not be a 100% flinch.

    Not only do I have ~1600 hourth, but I altho have many 1sth plathe tournament winth, therefore my thoughtsth are thupreme and you should bow before me…

    Yes m’lord.



  • @a:

    Hm, should flinches be removed ENTIRELY from projectiles? The game would certainly be more fun for me, and probably 90% of the people who play this game. Would it really detriment archers and/or balance enough to make conditional flinches the better option? Gah, I’m drooling about no flinches. I think that just the additional “fun factor” to be had from not getting arrow flinched is a good enough reason to take it out completely now. At any rate, I don’t think there will be much opposition to the notion that projectiles should not be a 100% flinch.

    I’d rather just see projectiles flinch on windup; makes it consistent with the rest of the mechanics. Doing this will also force archers to switch to their melee weapons at a slightly further range rather than taking those greedy last second shots every single time. Also, the weapon swap no flinch bug needs to be fixed.


  • Global Moderator

    @NoVaLombardia:

    I’d rather just see projectiles flinch on windup; makes it consistent with the rest of the mechanics. Doing this will also force archers to switch to their melee weapons at a slightly further range rather than taking those greedy last second shots every single time. Also, the weapon swap no flinch bug needs to be fixed.

    No flinch?

    You flinch after you swap if you get hit while swapping.



  • A major damage nerf is nothing short of the correct way to go.
    As of now, the receiving end has to rely on nothing but their luck to avoid getting hit by archers arrows. (You can move unpredictably and use shields, but it’s ultimately nothing that can assure your safety, like a parry)
    Stamina drain on draws and accuracy nerfs won’t make me any less mad when I get one-shot from a distance, just because it won’t happen as frequently.

    Also, no such thing as accuracy nerfs, plz. The success rate should still be entirely dependent on the archer aiming skills.

    I’ve changed my opinion about arrow flinching, it should definitively go. It won’t affect archers personally unless they’re at close range, at which point they perhaps should switch to a weapon instead. The flinch should be kept for javelins and sling, though.



  • The vanguard is no longer required in the next patch.



  • Archer specifically needs the damage nerf. Why are people so hung on the idea that archers need to one shot each other and deal massive damage to other classes. Nerfimg damage on bodyshots makes the class more skillbased. You dont just need to land a lucky legshot with a warbow to completely fuck someone over.



  • @lemonater47:

    You flinch after you swap if you get hit while swapping.

    Nope

    @Bluebeard:

    Archer specifically needs the damage nerf. Why are people so hung on the idea that archers need to one shot each other and deal massive damage to other classes. Nerfimg damage on bodyshots makes the class more skillbased. You dont just need to land a lucky legshot with a warbow to completely fuck someone over.

    50% damage nerf still best idea, nova. Truth.



  • @lemonater47:

    No flinch?

    You flinch after you swap if you get hit while swapping.

    Nope mayne.



  • 50% sounds a bit drastic. Make it 20% less for body- and limbshots, but keep headshot damage the same. Remove flinch in release and idle. (Keep the idle flinch animation though, otherwise arrow hits would feel really powerless.) Add stamina drain on bow draw. Buff smoke pots. Buff health regen over time.

    Tada.

    Make stab feint window 0.1s smaller.


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