Ideaologies



  • You do understand scale right? You do understand societal evolution? You do understand that a society that has given into the idea that the government/state is all powerful will not question it. Germany’s socialism is a direct result from Hitler’s socialism from a defeated society thus they were easily compelled to comply as with much of Europe after hundreds of generations being used to serfdom and servitude to the state.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/economic-stagnation-in-europe-towards-a-deflationary-spiral/5388566
    http://online.wsj.com/articles/finland-reduces-economic-growth-forecast-for-2014-1403087681
    While those three have fared better than most after the recession thing are far from perfect and considering the amount that Germany has bailed out so many other that are in trouble doesn’t far well.

    I also believe that your analogies to the whiskey rebellion to that of the fight for independence is apples and oranges. While the intial idea of “no taxation without representation” was the battle cry there was over 100 years of oppression by England and the Whiskey Rebellion was more about paying for the war with a very temporary tax.

    In addition to your theory about private property and who was considered land owners, property and slaves, the reality is that they were living in what was considered proper and the constitution has been changed in accordance to societal evolution in a modern world. It is not like all the founding fathers were slave owners or approved of slavery even then. Considering that they grew up in a culture where slavery was establish in the 1500s and was common place, yet still there were founding fathers that were abolitionist even then but they didn’t believe they would see it in their life time. It just too some maturing of our society to make it a reality.

    But the idea of individualism and private property is clearly shown in the bill of rights. Because we are not a democracy this is what allowed this country to become the world leader that it is. By allowing the individual to pursue happiness and to thrive in invention, problem solving, the theater of ideas and to be rewarded for your efforts. No country has created, invented, and produced intellectual property, so much in such a short time do to these freedoms.

    While you think that the government has more rights than the individual, this still does not hold true thanks to the constitution where individuals can and do sue the government and can challenge the government without repercussions. This is what the current IRS scandal is all about, abuse of power. Unfortunately, as we have become more socialist the more we are becoming an oligarchy where we have families of politicians and those with money are paying for their access.

    I disagree with you that I have constructed a false dichotomy. The statistics say otherwise. While the state helping people out in their time of need seems like a good and nobel thing, in many cases it has had the opposite effect. It was supposed to help people up as in a hand up but the reality is that it has created a dependent society that has done nothing but increase the numbers of those dependent, currently the highest number of people on social services than ever before. For the first time, social services and unfunded mandated budgets over shadowed the military budget. Paying down the debt is not even a blip on the budget. Then when you consider that 50% pay zero in federal taxes, they are the ones that absorb the majority of the benefits.

    While you are partially correct in an individual basis the overall picture is in complete disagreement with this;

    “Receiving money from the government for any myriad number of reasons does not make someone irresponsible, nor does it necessarily follow that it creates some sort of moral lassitude which culminates in a collapse of the society as a whole. Nor does aid from the state make one a slave to the state. Or at least, it makes one no more a slave than would accepting a wage from an employer.”

    the reality is completely different. This is an interesting essay about the realities of the poor on social services.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/06/23/welfare-state-doesnt-adequately-describe-how-much-americas-poor-control-your-wallet/ Granted it is opinion but considering that Food stamps and welfare are at an all time high and has been for quite some time that there are generations of people that have grown up dependent upon the system.

    Addressing your idea that job providers are slave owners is also a false argument. All low paying jobs are designed for those with limited to no skills, virtually no responsibility and to learn to work and get those skills. Ideally these people can move up and or out for better paying jobs once they obtain those skills. IF someone is 30 years old with kids working at or near minimum wage, they suck at life. There are thousands of jobs that pay $50k to $100K + a year that go unfulfilled because of a huge lack of skilled and knowledgeable workers.

    That leads me to education and along with social services, education is probably the worst black hole for money and producing inferior products. Thanks teachers union and progressive liberal social engineering dumbing down our students for decades. But that is another topic and I have already written a mini essay as it is.



  • i dont i learned any marketable skills in my school years at all



  • @Retsnom:

    That leads me to education and along with social services, education is probably the worst black hole for money and producing inferior products. Thanks teachers union and progressive liberal social engineering dumbing down our students for decades. But that is another topic and I have already written a mini essay as it is.

    And… what… is the alternative to education?



  • @dudeface:

    And… what… is the alternative to education?

    home schooling private schools tutors



  • I don’t have any problem with alternative education, as I myself was homeschooled. Not educating your children shouldn’t be an option though.



  • who wouldnt though? before public schooling parents were really good at teaching their kids



  • @zombojoe:

    who wouldnt though?

    Some people wouldn’t, for whatever reason.

    @zombojoe:

    before public schooling parents were really good at teaching their kids

    o rly? all of them?



  • Home schooled kids are always behind everyone else.



  • @Retsnom:

    You do understand scale right? You do understand societal evolution? You do understand that a society that has given into the idea that the government/state is all powerful will not question it. Germany’s socialism is a direct result from Hitler’s socialism from a defeated society thus they were easily compelled to comply as with much of Europe after hundreds of generations being used to serfdom and servitude to the state.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/economic-stagnation-in-europe-towards-a-deflationary-spiral/5388566
    http://online.wsj.com/articles/finland-reduces-economic-growth-forecast-for-2014-1403087681
    While those three have fared better than most after the recession thing are far from perfect and considering the amount that Germany has bailed out so many other that are in trouble doesn’t far well.

    I also believe that your analogies to the whiskey rebellion to that of the fight for independence is apples and oranges. While the intial idea of “no taxation without representation” was the battle cry there was over 100 years of oppression by England and the Whiskey Rebellion was more about paying for the war with a very temporary tax.

    In addition to your theory about private property and who was considered land owners, property and slaves, the reality is that they were living in what was considered proper and the constitution has been changed in accordance to societal evolution in a modern world. It is not like all the founding fathers were slave owners or approved of slavery even then. Considering that they grew up in a culture where slavery was establish in the 1500s and was common place, yet still there were founding fathers that were abolitionist even then but they didn’t believe they would see it in their life time. It just too some maturing of our society to make it a reality.

    But the idea of individualism and private property is clearly shown in the bill of rights. Because we are not a democracy this is what allowed this country to become the world leader that it is. By allowing the individual to pursue happiness and to thrive in invention, problem solving, the theater of ideas and to be rewarded for your efforts. No country has created, invented, and produced intellectual property, so much in such a short time do to these freedoms.

    While you think that the government has more rights than the individual, this still does not hold true thanks to the constitution where individuals can and do sue the government and can challenge the government without repercussions. This is what the current IRS scandal is all about, abuse of power. Unfortunately, as we have become more socialist the more we are becoming an oligarchy where we have families of politicians and those with money are paying for their access.

    I disagree with you that I have constructed a false dichotomy. The statistics say otherwise. While the state helping people out in their time of need seems like a good and nobel thing, in many cases it has had the opposite effect. It was supposed to help people up as in a hand up but the reality is that it has created a dependent society that has done nothing but increase the numbers of those dependent, currently the highest number of people on social services than ever before. For the first time, social services and unfunded mandated budgets over shadowed the military budget. Paying down the debt is not even a blip on the budget. Then when you consider that 50% pay zero in federal taxes, they are the ones that absorb the majority of the benefits.

    While you are partially correct in an individual basis the overall picture is in complete disagreement with this;

    “Receiving money from the government for any myriad number of reasons does not make someone irresponsible, nor does it necessarily follow that it creates some sort of moral lassitude which culminates in a collapse of the society as a whole. Nor does aid from the state make one a slave to the state. Or at least, it makes one no more a slave than would accepting a wage from an employer.”

    the reality is completely different. This is an interesting essay about the realities of the poor on social services.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/06/23/welfare-state-doesnt-adequately-describe-how-much-americas-poor-control-your-wallet/ Granted it is opinion but considering that Food stamps and welfare are at an all time high and has been for quite some time that there are generations of people that have grown up dependent upon the system.

    Addressing your idea that job providers are slave owners is also a false argument. All low paying jobs are designed for those with limited to no skills, virtually no responsibility and to learn to work and get those skills. Ideally these people can move up and or out for better paying jobs once they obtain those skills. IF someone is 30 years old with kids working at or near minimum wage, they suck at life. There are thousands of jobs that pay $50k to $100K + a year that go unfulfilled because of a huge lack of skilled and knowledgeable workers.

    That leads me to education and along with social services, education is probably the worst black hole for money and producing inferior products. Thanks teachers union and progressive liberal social engineering dumbing down our students for decades. But that is another topic and I have already written a mini essay as it is.

    Provide me the evidence that Germany has given into the idea that the state is all-powerful. Or the Scandinavian countries. Or Finland. By evidence, I don’t mean your opinion. I mean cite me some valid sources that demonstrate Germans behaving as if the state is all-powerful. Also, the first link you provided was socialist in tone, and indicated a growing dissatisfaction with the power of bankers and the growth of the wealthy at the expense of the working class. Classic socialist rhetoric, in other words. So perhaps the wrong article to showcase you point. The second article simply indicate that the worst global recession in nearly a century has also affected Finland by reducing their growth projections from .5% to .2%. Hardly a world-breaking amount.

    Your assertions regarding slave-owning are irrelevant. You defeat your own argument: if Americans embodied the individual as the pinnacle of the law, and several of our leaders acknowledged the inherent wrongness of slavery, then the fact that they ignored that inherent wrongness and promoted the state over the individual (slave-owning being perhaps the ultimate expression of individual oppression) demonstrates that the American government was prepared to trample the rights of individuals from its inception. Maturation of society is irrelevant: you claimed that America has always been exceptional, and was founded on the basis of individual rights. Slave-owning, and the lack of suffrage for women, for non-land-owning men and for certain naturalized immigrants, demonstrates a distinct lack of commitment to individual rights in favor of rights granted to a relative few.

    Again, demonstrate to me the validity of your claim that “No country has created, invented, and produced intellectual property, so much in such a short time do to these freedoms.” Show me the numbers that support that claim, and show me the studies that demonstrate a causal link between those numbers and the Bill of Rights.

    Nowhere did I state that I “think that the government has more rights than the individual.” In fact, I believe the opposite. I believe very strongly in individual rights. Individualism is the foundation of humanity, but I don’t think individualism and socialism are mutually exclusive. One can help others without being beholden to a government entity. One can use a machine without being owned by that machine. And indeed, one can agree with tenets of a philosophy with subscribing to all its myriad facets. And of course, I would like to see evidence that America is more socialist than ever, as compared to America during FDR’s New Deal, for example, which saw massive government changes which would nowadays be likened to socialism. Or during Teddy Roosevelt’s presidency, where business regulation reached an all time high due to Roosevelt’s dislike for monopolies. Or the Great Society program under LBJ, which established many of the modern welfare programs. Demonstrate, through evidence, the causal relationship between increased socialism (if it exists) and the creation of a pseudo-aristocracy of politicians and wealthy people which stifles the functioning on democracy. I agree with you that such an oligarchy is forming, or at least something like it, but I think its gestation has gone hand in hand with the growth of American big business, and has very little to do with social welfare programs instituted by the government.

    Nor did I say employers are slave owners. You said that socialism makes people slaves to the government. I responded with an analogy: if receiving money from the government makes you a slave, then receiving money from an employer is just as much a form of slavery. I’m not saying that’s what I think, I’m saying that’s the logical extension of what YOU said. If one needs the government to exist because of the money they provide, and that’s slavery, then what does that say about the rest of us who need money from an employer or else we cannot exist? What you said actually sounds quite close to the Marxist concept of wage-slavery, so congrats Retsnom, you just joined the commie master race. ;)

    In fact, provide evidence for every single claim you make, and show how they are related. Because as it stands, you make vast sweeping generalizations with nothing but standard anti-poor, anti-welfare rhetoric to back it up. If your view i truly that “IF someone is 30 years old with kids working at or near minimum wage, they suck at life. There are thousands of jobs that pay $50k to $100K + a year that go unfulfilled because of a huge lack of skilled and knowledgeable workers” then you are delusional. First of all, you constructed a strawman argument because nowhere have I argued anything about a hypoethical someone who is a 30 year old parent working at minimum wage, presumably with the skills to fulfill a 50k-100k USD annual income job. You created that hypothetical scenario and then held it up as evidence that welfare is bad and people on welfare are bad. I could do the same thing in reverse to demonstrate the why welfare is good and people on welfare are good, and it would be just as valid because its based on nothing but hypotheticals.

    Your notion that there are thousands of jobs at 50k-100k that go unfulfilled needs verification, and your rhetoric that people can just pull themselves up by their boot-straps is laughable. The poor are poor for reasons beyond the fact that they can’t get a job. Poverty exists for issues larger than the choices of an individual. That’s not to say that social factors are deterministic in the sense that someone born into poverty cannot get out of it, but those born into poverty have a much lower chance of achieving anything positive simply due to the circumstances into which they were born. You can’t just “move up and out for a better paying job” when you are born into a situation where you never had any money to begin with, you received a shit education (if at all), you grew up surrounded by violence, drugs and other poor folk, and a system is set in place where to make money and improve one’s circumstances, one must possess money in the first place. Which is difficult when your bank account holds negative dollars, and has done so since before you were born. Welfare programs exist to help those people, not to absolve them of responsibility but rather to give them the chance to even have some semblance of responsibility, which they would not otherwise have for no reason other than the circumstances of their birth. Does welfare abuse exist? Yes. Could it be better? Certainly. But the reasons it exists are valid, and taking it away because you think it creates irresponsible, government slaves will in fact achieve the opposite of what you supposedly desire.

    i dont i learned any marketable skills in my school years at all

    Then you went to a bad school, or were bad at learning. Public high school I will grant you is pretty dismal. However, people can and do learn many marketable skills in school and college, and that’s an easily demonstrable fact, so that argument falls flat. The notion that all parents should home school their children, pay for tutors (which is basically the same thing but more expensive) or send them to private school is unfeasible for a variety of reasons. Economically, many people can’t afford private school, many of which have a yearly tuition matching or exceeding the tuition of private colleges. In addition, the fact that most people must work for a living means that they would have comparatively little time to home school their children in an adequate fashion. That’s not even taking into account the fact that the parents must have the knowledge to impart to their child on myriad subjects in the first place, and then the skills necessary to teach effectively as well. Many parents would not have the requisite knowledge in all the fields required, and even those who do possess such knowledge may not have the teaching skill necessary to impart that knowledge.



  • I’m just amazed how long this thread has become. I mean really, who cares about politics and shit mayne



  • @Retsnom:

    I am not paranoid. I am actually quite confident in knowing that I and all the other gun owners are by default keeping the government in check.

    Why hasn’t the U.K. government gone crazy yet then? Is it only a matter of time until they start getting all tyrannical?



  • I thought they already had started that.



  • @Retsnom:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_death_rate

    @Retsnom:

    Yeah more wikipedia…… how about going to the actual source?

    Double standards.

    @dudeface:

    I thought they already had started that.

    How so?



  • @gndo:

    Why hasn’t the U.K. government gone crazy yet then? Is it only a matter of time until they start getting all tyrannical?

    you should watch V for Vendetta



  • @Flippy:

    “If I type this massive wall I’ll win the argument.”

    “Fuck he replied with another wall. I’ll skim it and then write another wall proving his general idea wrong.”

    “Now he’s contradicting himself! I’m gonna point it out then write another wall.”

    “MOAR WALLS”

    It would be so much easier if you guys just posted a paragraph or two. Nobody is gonna read massive walls of text on a forum.

    I guess then don’t participate if you don’t want to read.



  • @Kreittis:

    I’m just amazed how long this thread has become. I mean really, who cares about politics and shit mayne

    How dare you complain tbh. Some of us like the very long text walls, the white is pleasing to the eye.
    Like white noise is enjoyed by the ears. Some of these wall producers are having very deep debates with high walls.



  • @loin:

    How dare you complain tbh. Some of us like the very long text walls, the white is pleasing to the eye.
    Like white noise is enjoyed by the ears. Some of these wall producers are having very deep debates with high walls.

    haha pretty much

    writing walls takes too long so i dont put too much effort into my posts

    also most people would be too dumb to read them anyway



  • @Brutus:

    Provide me the evidence ……

    While you pose semi interesting counter arguments, all you have really done is twist my words to suit your agenda. There is plenty of proof of what I have stated and very simple google searches would prove me correct once you get past the liberal spin of shit. The fact is that there is no valid source that you would deem worthy of credibility, in most cases when you ask for proof. That is the beauty of your argument in asking for proof… You will simply discredit and spin so that it “proves” your point. That is basically how propaganda works. Congrats.

    You made the most important facts about our founding fathers and their relevant history, “irrelevant” when in fact it is very relevant because you have made the fatal flaw of applying modern social morays to antiquity and saying “see… blah blah… if and so…” Sorry but ignoring history in context shreds any credibility to your argument. By “after the fact, arm chair quarter backing”, you have negated the facts and actual history and again your logic and argument fails. In addition, by following the ideas of rewriting history to fit modern agendas also makes all of you points mute because you have failed to understand the reality of the circumstances at the time. Viewing history with myopic political agendas also does you no favors.

    In many cases poverty is a choice and not a very good one at that. I grew up very poor. The second youngest and a step child to a very poor white trash family of 8 kids, where my step father actually married his first cousin after my mom finally had the courage to leave the abuse. This was after 10 years of beatings for both my mom and my brother and me while being the only white people in the hood.

    We never had money, were surrounded by violence and drugs. Shit, every single one of my step brothers spent time in jail over drugs. I dont even want to tell you what my sister Charlotte when to the pen for. But we never ever took welfare. It was an insult to do such a thing back then. It meant you failed and suck at life. So my step dad work us and his ass off, year round cutting trees in the summer and chopping firewood and delivering it in the winter. Us kids were cheap labor but we had all we could eat most of the time even though it was crap food and we had our own garden and my mom canned vegetables. Hell I didnt know what Mc Donalds tasted like till I was like 11. Forget pudding pops and fruit roll ups and lunchables. It was bag cereal, PB&J and baloney sandwiches with lots of hand me down cloths that didn’t fit.

    We, my brother and I, both chose to never be that way and both me and my brother self educated ourselves. My brother owns Hollywood Sound and Lights which after almost 20 years of being a sound engineer for every major band on the planet, started his own company. He has severe dyslexia and never when to college, let along graduate high school. He taught himself and made his own opportunities by clawing his way to the top. Gene Simmons, The Rock, Martina McBride, Tate Stevens and many others are on his contact list on his freaking phone.

    I have owned and operated many businesses to varying degrees of success and failure, invested and lost lots of money that I made and earned working in restaurants for years. Having owned 2, an event planning company, home remodeling company, graphic design/web/I.T. company. all self taught. Now I am working for a major accounting firm in the US as an I.T. consultant making damn good money for what I do. All choices made from the fucking white trash ghetto of Kansas city. I made lots of mistakes and I own every single one of them but the failures made me stronger. So don’t even tell me about choices and opportunities. You make them. Being born into a situation or whatever PC bullshit you tried to spin is exactly that, spin and bullshit excuses. You have done nothing but glorify the lifestyle of victim-hood. Where it is never your fault but the fault of the man… the evil white racist conservative devil to be precise. Ugh… This is where you tell me to check my privileged bullshit…

    You also completely missed the point on many topics that I have discussed and I am afraid that it maybe too much as I am a big picture thinker and I use the overall facts. Granted it does not apply fully on an individual basis which I believe is what you are arguing. So thus it is apples and oranges.

    The difference between being a slave to the government because you are dependent upon them and working a job is that you can always change jobs and advance in your career where as if you are dependent upon the government, the only way you can advance is to vote for people who promise you more and deliver.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/

    That article among many prove that you can always change jobs but not change the government subsidies of your life style when you are a dependent on the state. Being a slave means you have no choices and are forced to comply. Working for companies that best fit you and your upward mobility is key.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-say-3-million-unfilled-positions-in-skill-crisis-jobs.html
    http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/27/smallbusiness/youth_manufacturing_jobs/
    http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020645973_skillsgapxml.html
    http://www.indeed.com/q-100k-jobs.html
    http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2012/03/26/100k-a-year-jobs-that-dont-require-a-college-degree/

    Shall I continue? Shit there are freaking millions of 50K a year jobs that go unfilled or they cannot find or keep qualified employees….

    However, your continued attempts to apply your logic to mine also leads to different conclusions because you simply do not accept the facts and demand proof that you will not accept from any source.

    Example: America went from primitive farming to feeding the world and sending men to the mood in less than 200 years. The history of technology and its development in the last 200 years is mostly from America, that is really all the proof that you need. No other country in the history of man has done that in such a short time. It was all do to giving freedoms to the individual and allowing them to reap the rewards of their inventions. I have overly simplified the argument for the sake of time. But the proof is all around you. When was the last time Islam created or invented or discovered anything since like the 13th century?

    In addition, your incredibly weak attempt at calling me Marxist is not only wrong but simply retarded and intellectually dishonest. If you are talking about the rights of the individual then you have to include personal responsibility. This is absolutely key. In other words, you are responsible for your poor decisions and should have to live with them unless they are so bad that you do indeed need a hand up. But that hand up should require service, action, education and increased responsibility to learn another skill or trade.

    Now this is completely different from charity and charitable works for those that are truly not able. The problem is that we have redefined what makes someone eligible for disability by lowering the standards that that pretty much anyone can qualify with just about any excuse. But for those that are truly handicapped, there are many charities and the rich give more than you know. But it is never enough for the envious and the class warfare mongers.

    Now lets look at your perfect example of socialism… the Veterans Administration and single payer health care of which I am a veteran and a member. It fails. Administrators are getting bonuses while veterans have to wait and die.

    Then you post this drivel…
    “Then you went to a bad school, or were bad at learning. Public high school I will grant you is pretty dismal. However, people can and do learn many marketable skills in school and college, and that’s an easily demonstrable fact, so that argument falls flat. The notion that all parents should home school their children, pay for tutors (which is basically the same thing but more expensive) or send them to private school is unfeasible for a variety of reasons. Economically, many people can’t afford private school, many of which have a yearly tuition matching or exceeding the tuition of private colleges. In addition, the fact that most people must work for a living means that they would have comparatively little time to home school their children in an adequate fashion. That’s not even taking into account the fact that the parents must have the knowledge to impart to their child on myriad subjects in the first place, and then the skills necessary to teach effectively as well. Many parents would not have the requisite knowledge in all the fields required, and even those who do possess such knowledge may not have the teaching skill necessary to impart that knowledge.”

    So what you are saying is that people still learn in public school and spend thousands in college and learn many marketable skills? Really? How many qualified college kids have you employed? I can tell you that they are mostly all idiots and sadly I have hired a few. The American education system is travesty and an indoctrination system that cares more about your self esteem that you actually learning math, history, English, and science. They care more about teaching you about gay sex and masturbation than actually teaching you how to read. But hey, here is a participation trophy. Forget about PE or GYM class, that is too much of a liability and you might injure yourself so to keep you young, vibrant, and hyper body for fidgeting, here is some Ritilen and Prozac.

    Then you have the college queens that have 4 years of learning how to party, with condoms! Only to get worthless degrees and are 60K + in debt because they majored in psychology, Poly-Sci, philosophy and any number of retarded degrees that are completely worthless in the real world. These idiots are not even qualified to be a social worker and don’t have the skills of the average fast food worker. But damn they sure read a lot of the liberal agenda. This is on top of the self entitled bullshit of them expecting to leave college making anything above $30K is a joke. What the fuck happened to working your way to the top. Key work… Working…



  • College is an opportunity, not an automatic betterment of your situation. Many people do not make the most of it. That doesn’t mean the entire system should be shut down.



  • This is 2014. You can’t self teach yourself and expect to get a job. Mainly because there’s 80 other qualified people wanting that job. So you could we as good as them but there’s no piece of paper proving that.

    And America got rich because everyone else beat the crap out of each other. Words wen profited off WW1 and WW2.


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