LTS VS TO *Legitimacy*



  • Hello, comp scene. I would like to hear your opinions. Let’s actually be constructive instead of “LTS sux” and “TO DUMB MODE”. Active competitive players only.

    Recently, there has been a lot of hate on LTS. I personally do not believe that LTS is illegitimate, it simply has a different focus compared to TO. I do not see how it is unbalanced, either.

    In LTS, there is no objective to manage, but this doesn’t lower the skill requirement, it simply means that you have your focus on a different element. To win fights and you mostly rely on combat rather than objective strategy to win. Is there something wrong with that? This game is a fighting game. This mode is for focusing on the team fighting element of the game. Do all competitive gamemodes in a fighting game need to have an objective in order for them to be deemed legitimate? I think this gamemode is a core mode to competitive Chivalry, in combination with TO. It cannot be ignored and shunned, because this mode provides a lot that TO can’t. (Respectively, TO provides elements that LTS cannot)

    In TO, there is an objective to manage, wave spawning, and times to beat. I like this concept and it is done well in the competitive maps (Darkforest, Stoneshill, occasionally other things like Hillside), however I do not think it requires more skill, rather I believe it requires a different type of skill. Objective strategy is certainly important but I do not think it is the only important element to Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.

    I wish that LTS and TO would exist in harmony and separated into respectively LTS and TO. There are not very similar dynamics in play and they should both be considered their own realm. You cannot try to choose only one to play and deem legitimate. They each bring in elements that the other cannot. Yin and Yang, not “YANG ONLY YIN SUX.”

    Please, I hope your minds have been opened up a bit to playing both modes regularly, I do not think that the current meta of “LTS SUX” or even “I HATE TO, ALWAYS LTS” that the comp scene is adopting is healthy. We should all be on the same page.

    If you have a legitimate argument, please post. Mods, I hope that you DELETE any toxic posts, I don’t want to sit through pages of cyber-verbal abuse. I really want a constructive discussion, uninterrupted. Thanks for your hard work.



  • LTS isn’t competitive because there’s no incentive to attack. The team that is able to just turtle and defend chokepoints will have the advantage. This is why in TO the defending team wins most of the fights. Attacking chokepoints is quite difficult, and since there’s no reason to do this in LTS, it’s in both teams best interest to turtle until they can attack with an advantage (when an archer dies).

    It’s not competitive because the team with the better archer will just win, and it won’t grow the competitive scene because nobody wants to watch a scrim where you sit around for 3 minutes until an archer dies.



  • @Karasu:

    LTS isn’t competitive because there’s no incentive to attack. The team that is able to just turtle and defend chokepoints will have the advantage. This is why in TO the defending team wins most of the fights. Attacking chokepoints is quite difficult, and since there’s no reason to do this in LTS, it’s in both teams best interest to turtle until they can attack with an advantage (when an archer dies).

    It’s not competitive because the team with the better archer will just win, and it won’t grow the competitive scene because nobody wants to watch a scrim where you sit around for 3 minutes until an archer dies.

    I think an archer nerf will greatly improve situations like this. Trust me brother, I have definitely been through many scrims like this and I now remember now that this is one of the bigger problems with LTS.

    However, I think if archers were to be nerfed then LTS would be much more enjoyable.

    Thanks for the courtesy, Karasu, it’s greatly appreciated.



  • Also, along with Karasu’s reason, LTS is not fun to watch at all. Or play in for that matter. You’ve got two teams, sitting behind cover for up to 3 minutes, doing absolutely nothing letting archers shoot at one another.

    Now I may be in the minority for this, but archer duels are pretty dull. Pls don’t crucify me.

    A game mode that puts so much focus and so much balance on one lucky arrow (let’s face it, archer duels are mostly who walks into who’s arrow first) is just not balanced and not competitive at all.



  • @JimmyTryhard:

    I think an archer nerf will greatly improve situations like this. Trust me brother, I have definitely been through many scrims like this and I now remember now that this is one of the bigger problems with LTS.

    However, I think if archers were to be nerfed then LTS would be much more enjoyable.

    Thanks for the courtesy, Karasu, it’s greatly appreciated.

    its not archer nerfs that will fix it because its a conceptual thing

    archers decide rounds in LTS because you can kill a player without losing anything

    you dont commit anything with archer duels other than the archers’ lives and if you lose your archer boohoo you can still wipe the melee with a bit of luck

    arching is also the only way to break up turtling, if you slay the archer



  • I’ve enjoyed both game modes equally and find faults and pluses in each one.

    Soo, we also seem to have an easier time getting LTS scrims as well so end up playing more of those.

    I don’t mind either one, I haven’t seen a true archer duel in weeks, pretty action packed.



  • @Flippy:

    Also, along with Karasu’s reason, LTS is not fun to watch at all. Or play in for that matter. You’ve got two teams, sitting behind cover for up to 3 minutes, doing absolutely nothing letting archers shoot at one another.

    Now I may be in the minority for this, but archer duels are pretty dull. Pls don’t crucify me.

    A game mode that puts so much focus and so much balance on one lucky arrow (let’s face it, archer duels are mostly who walks into who’s arrow first) is just not balanced and not competitive at all.

    What may be fun to you is different for other people, your perception is not the only that exists.

    I definitely see what you mean though. It is too dependent on archers, that’s why I suggest an archer nerf. I think that if one good archer can’t destroy and entire 5 man team from halfway across the map before the 5 man team can even get to the other, it would make things a lot better.

    I LOVE all melee LTS, it’s my favorite gamemode. I personally find it more action packed than TO and more fun to watch in addition.

    Maybe for now it should be agreed that all LTS tournaments should be melee only? Limited projectiles maybe like firepots?



  • @zombojoe:

    its not archer nerfs that will fix it because its a conceptual thing

    archers decide rounds in LTS because you can kill a player without losing anything

    you dont commit anything with archer duels other than the archers’ lives and if you lose your archer boohoo you can still wipe the melee with a bit of luck

    disagree about archer nerf, I think that if one good archer can’t destroy and entire 5 man team from halfway across the map before the 5 man team can even get to the other, it would make things a lot better.



  • Like Zombo said, it’s a conceptual problem with LTS. It’s not archers, it’s the fact that you need an objective to discourage turtling. CSGO recognized this years ago with their competitive game mode.



  • @Karasu:

    Like Zombo said, it’s a conceptual problem with LTS. It’s not archers, it’s the fact that you need an objective to discourage turtling. CSGO recognized this years ago with their competitive game mode.

    yeah

    also its boring for me to go archer and win every round if i actually try



  • in LTS most of the maps tend to favor one side over the other just by means of layout. So the side you pick has a lot of weight.
    So much so, that in most cases I would almost rather lose the duel/kendo just to get the choice of side.

    Only maps that are even are Arena, Argon’s Wall, and (kinda) Moor.
    At least in a TO you play both sides.

    But I don’t play anymore so I guess my opinion is invalid.
    *also since my opinion is irrelevant. LTS sucks.



  • So much so, that in most cases I would almost rather lose the duel/kendo just to get the choice of side.

    You can always say you want to pick side, as done in EU. Also, those maps are generally avoided because of this so very few unbalanced maps get picked and you see the same even ones consistently, arena etc



  • arena and argons are the only balanced maps in LTS lol



  • If they added LTSObjective maps, then that would be all I would bother to play.

    I like LTS for the concept and for scrims, but the mode needs another way to win/lose so that rounds wont take forever because of the two wienies who sat in the back all game so that they could 1v1.



  • LTS is pointless to play if you can get enough people for a 5v5 TO. It can be good for warm-up, training or just after a scrim when some people have left, but because linos bes eu, we don’t need training.



  • TO encompasses everything that LTS is, but adds an objective to consider. LTS is plenty competitive, and legit in it’s own right, but TO offers more room for strategy and puts an even GREATER emphasis on teamwork; I think that’s why it appeals to most people.



  • @Albert!:

    LTS is pointless to play if you can get enough people for a 5v5 TO.

    Unless you are someone like me who hates game modes that force you to grind/suicide onto an objective until you die/win/lose.

    Also, I enjoy it when the people I kill stay dead. Strange concept, I know.

    @parkrangerstan:

    TO encompasses everything that LTS is

    Except for the whole “not staying dead when you die” thing, I agreee completly.

    Dear Torn Banner,

    Please make some LTSO maps or something. I’ll even fucking buy access to the maps if I fucking have to.



  • @randomlvl40+:

    Unless you are someone like me who hates game modes that force you to grind/suicide onto an objective until you die/win/lose.

    Also, I enjoy it when the people I kill stay dead. Strange concept, I know.

    Except for the whole “not staying dead when you die” thing, I agreee completly.

    Dear Torn Banner,

    Please make some LTSO maps or something. I’ll even fucking buy access to the maps if I fucking have to.

    What about a TO game mode, but with a resource aspect to it (such as TDM has).



  • @parkrangerstan:

    What about a TO game mode, but with a resource aspect to it (such as TDM has).

    People will still come back after they die.

    Maybe you don’t understand.

    First of all, I grew up on Counter Strike.

    And back when I was in Highschool, my friends and I would spend ridiculous amounts of time playing CoD 4(and later versions) Hardcore Search and Destroy (the only game mode worth playing).

    Death was instant and permanent and I loved it so much.

    Nothing gets your heart going like being the last man standing in Hardcore Search.

    For me, TO seams like a pointless grind, alot like TDM in CoD (whenever I see reddit kids talk shit about CoD I always assume they only ever spent an hour in TDM before bursting into tears for waisting their allowance).

    When we scrim and I know its going to be TO I try to bail if they don’t need a player…



  • The short and sweet of why I think LTS sucks is that the maps aren’t balanced and aside from Argons double ammo box there are no points worth contesting. Without something in the middle of the map to force some map movement the game becomes stale because I end up looking at a rock or counting grass while my archer plays duel mode. Sure, you can just simply rush lesser teams and crush them by outplaying them but when you fight an equally skilled team it’s to both teams advantage to simply sit and camp.


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