Dynamic flinch system



  • Let me just start by saying I truly believe we need a dynamic flinch system to appease all valid arguments about flinch times, and what values create what problems. It’s the only way to properly fix it.

    The general consensus of the forum is that flinch time needs to be increased, some people think 0.9 should be the number and some think more (and so do I in a way) is needed than a 0.1 increase from 0.8. Some people have suggested a dynamic flinch time system which, theoretically, would keep combofeints punishable while still fixing the issues of having a low flinch time on weapons that face issues with it - another cool feature is that if someone hits you with something fast, you’d only be stunned for as long as that fast weapon - but the same works in reverse for if someone hits you with something slow adding a bit more depth to combat (imagine a maul guy and a dagger guy both attacking you at the same time).

    I have seen many people saying OH TORN BANNER SHOULDN’T ADD IT THEY CAN’T BALANCE ANYTHING PROPERLY or IT’S IMPOSSIBLE IT WOULD CAUSE TOOMANY PROBLEMS and so on.

    I have posted before a bit of a basic formula which could be used to calculate weapon flinch time but that was poorly explained and a bit more basic than what I am about to present as an idea:

    The general consensus is that you take a weapons combo time, along with the flinch time of all three attacks and get an average. You then take 0.3s off to compensate for latency or tightening combos with swing deceleration and acceleration which gives you a fair chance to parry. I have done the maths for a handful of weapons here to give you an idea of the kind of figures this presents.

    longsword
    0.675 + 0.6 1.275
    0.7 + 0.4 1.1 1.2 average -0.3 = 0.9
    0.675 + 0.55 1.225

    zweihander
    0.8 + 0.65 -0.3 1.45
    0.825 + 0.6 - 0.3 1.425 average 1.39 - 0.3 = 1.09
    0.8 + 0.5 - 0.3 1.3

    claymore
    0.625 + 0.45 1.075
    0.625 + 0.45 1.075 average 1.058 -0.3 = 0.758
    0.625 + 0.4 1.025

    messer
    0.7 + 0.6 1.3
    0.7 + 0.6 1.3 average 1.25 - 0.3 = 0.95
    0.75 + 0.4 1.15

    broad dagger
    0.5 + 0.3 0.8
    0.5 + 0.3 0.8 average 0.78 - 0.3 = 0.48
    0.5 + 0.25 0.75

    maul
    0.85 + 0.6 1.45
    0.85 + 0.6 1.45 average 1.41 - 0.3 = 1.11
    0.85 + 0.5 1.35

    broadsword
    0.6 + 0.35 0.95
    0.65 + 0.35 1.0 average 0.96 - 0.3 = 0.66
    0.65 + 0.3 0.95

    Thoughts? Please post responses on what you think of the formula, not if you think flinch times needs to be changed at all - it’s been discussed to death in other threads. I probably messed up one or two numbers too so if you spot it just say.



  • I think that’s a pretty reasonable baseline from which to start. It may turn out that some weapons need tweaking, and individual flinch times shouldn’t be overlooked as an extra dimension with which to balance weapons.



  • @dudeface:

    I think that’s a pretty reasonable baseline from which to start. It may turn out that some weapons need tweaking, and individual flinch times shouldn’t be overlooked as an extra dimension with which to balance weapons.

    Yeah, no ideas perfect until it has been thoroughly tested. I thought it was along the right lines.

    Thanks for your input.



  • Looks good.



  • Very good idea, I would not mind something like this replacing the current system one bit.



  • +1 Should fix the fast weapons’ rapid combos.



  • I didn’t think anyone had a problem with 1h flinch times, why are you changing them?



  • I think every weapon should be interruptable if they do an instant hit if they don’t plan on going with DW-style of instant hits.



  • @gndo:

    I didn’t think anyone had a problem with 1h flinch times, why are you changing them?

    Wouldn’t it seem a bit silly to just have only 2h dynamic flinch times and stop there? It’s a good feature in itself and I’m sure many people have experienced being hit twice by a fast weapon while flinched and so on… It’s just a case of WHY not have it if you’re going to implement it for two handers - individual flinch times definitely is the better system for weapon balance and design.

    If those flinch times applied to one handers you could

    1. punish combo feint for those weapons
    2. not be locked out of attacking longer than you should be
    3. be hit twice in flinch
    4. if someone hits you with a dagger someone with a maul can’t smack you within the flinch time

    and so on… It’s just like why wouldn’t you want it.

    Of course this all needs to be tested.



  • @KILLBANDS:

    It’s just like why wouldn’t you want it.

    Yup. Shoulda been the design from the start, IMHO. Hindsight, and all that.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    I think every weapon should be interruptable if they do an instant hit if they don’t plan on going with DW-style of instant hits.

    While I agree that velocity based damage (like DW tried) is a better system and should be in chivalry (it was in age of chivalry for christ sake) I don’t think that’s ever going to happen.

    What does having flinch times calculated to allow normal combos have to do with instant hits? I included a bit about taking time off the flinch time so instant hitting and delaying to perform tighter combos isn’t so cheesey if that’s what you’re on about.



  • @dudeface:

    Yup. Shoulda been the design from the start, IMHO. Hindsight, and all that.

    To be fair I imagine it was quite hard playing with all those numbers to begin with to balance all these weapons. There are many variables so it probably didn’t seem like a big deal that it was the same number to begin with.

    However, there are definitely issues with it and TB hasn’t been afraid in trying drastic changes before in betas (anyone remember the one where they changed like ALL weapon timings based off of what steve and slygoat practically wrote on a napkin while drunk?) so I don’t see why this can’t be tried.



  • I thought most peoples issue with 0.8 flinch was because of gamblers hit trading or flinching their combo, not seen anyone do this vs 1h.

    Also with dagger hitting twice, if you time your parries correctly this won’t happen.

    Also, TB are yet to do their balancing act, perhaps we should see how competent they are with that before trying this. 0.9 2h flinch would be simpler and safer bet for now.



  • if someone does an instant hit, or hits you within the first 10% of the release, their combo should be interruptable with most weapons.

    insta-hits should have some element of risk to remain, since they are the easiest hits to land and hardest to read.

    This is, of course, in chiv’s current state. It may not be a problem if animations or certain feint windows are altered in a chiv 2.



  • Well you could also modulate flinch time in the same way DW does damage, but I’m not sure it would be entirely successful.



  • @NoVaLombardia:

    if someone does an instant hit, or hits you within the first 10% of the release, their combo should be interruptable with most weapons.

    insta-hits should have some element of risk to remain, since they are the easiest hits to land and hardest to read.

    This is, of course, in chiv’s current state. It may not be a problem if animations or certain feint windows are altered in a chiv 2.

    The problem is that it’s not easy to fix that, and the current state of the game doesn’t even enable what you want there either. I’d rather have the other issue fixed as I think it’s more important even though I agree with you.

    I mean your whole thing would be circumvented if they made the 2nd hit of a combo the instant hit… I just don’t see how you can fix it. Need DW tracers.

    @Gndo:

    Also, TB are yet to do their balancing act, perhaps we should see how competent they are with that before trying this. 0.9 2h flinch would be simpler and safer bet for now.

    I think people have explained well enough why 0.9 isn’t enough for some weapons to make a difference, for example, if a messer can return flinch or hit trade with a zweihander, a 0.1s flinch time change is not going to change ls or sow or norse or whatever faster weapon from doing it.

    The problem is the more you increase flinch time as 1 value for all weapons, the faster weapons become more exploitable and combo feint and so on can’t be punished (all weapons would be combo feint punishable with dynamic btw) yet the slower weapons become clearly viable and playable. If you have it too low the slow weapons aren’t playable anymore but the fast weapons are a bit less of a problem.

    Needs to be dynamic.

    Edit: I also need to say again that just changing it to 0.9 is simpler, but figuring out a formula and just tweaking from there is not exactly hard either. If you’re going to do it you may as well do it properly.



  • I really think the simple flinch system the game currently has is great the way it is.

    It’s important to preserve the reactive play on both sides during a combo. The player being flinched should imo reliably be able to determine when it’s possible to start attacking again after a flinch. If you can’t determine that, the game will certainly feel clunky and inconsistent. Perhaps it could be interesting to experiment with flinch times based on weapon types, not weapons; I don’t think such a system would feel too incompatible.

    In addition, shorter flinch times provide more depth to the comboing mechanics by forcing the attacker to determine how much initiative you have for a consequent strike, subject to the point of impact of the first landed, and adjust accordingly. One of the great things about this combo system is it’s simplicity. I’d hate to see it ruined because of the “the attacker should have the initiative until a combo feint, period.” mentality.

    That said, I’m all for increasing the flinch time somewhat. 0.8 is probably a bit too short. How I think fast weapons should be nerfed is a different topic.



  • @KILLBANDS:

    The problem is that it’s not easy to fix that, and the current state of the game doesn’t even enable what you want there either. I’d rather have the other issue fixed as I think it’s more important even though I agree with you.

    Current state of the game does allow that against most 2-handers, and like hardly any 1-handers, but was looking for it to affect ANY weapon.



  • @B4RK:

    I really think the simple flinch system the game currently has is great the way it is.

    It’s important to preserve the reactive play on both sides during a combo. The player being flinched should imo reliably be able to determine when it’s possible to start attacking again after a flinch. If you can’t determine that, the game will certainly feel clunky and inconsistent. Perhaps it could be interesting to experiment with flinch times based on weapon types, though; I don’t think such a system would feel too incompatible.

    It’d be rather natural and intuitive actually, slow weapons with long combo times consitently have a longer flinch time over the board. This would just be a minor thing to remmember after 1000 hours of gameplay it becomes natural like any other part of the game.

    @B4RK:

    In addition, shorter flinch times provide more depth to the comboing mechanics by forcing the attacker to determine how much initiative you have for a consequent strike, subject to the point of impact of the first landed, and adjust accordingly. One of the great things about this combo system is it’s simplicity. I’d hate to see it ruined because of the “the attacker should have the initiative until a combo feint, period.” mentality.

    That said, I’m all for increasing the flinch time somewhat. 0.8 is probably a bit too short. How I think fast weapons should be nerfed is a different topic.

    The depth that you add is an illusion because the most effective way to play become a constant gambling hittrade fest. There is no point to combo anymore unless you have more HP and more hard hitting weapon than your opponent.

    Let alone in TO’s where people don’t bother reading feints or putting any thought into their play anymore. This is the reality of the game. People just hittrade because its the most effective way to play when someone combo’s.



  • @Mr.Lion:

    The depth that you add is an illusion because the most effective way to play become a constant gambling hittrade fest. There is no point to combo anymore unless you have more HP and more hard hitting weapon than your opponent.

    Let alone in TO’s where people don’t bother reading feints or putting any thought into their play anymore. This is the reality of the game. People just hittrade because its the most effective way to play when someone combo’s.

    But that’s not true. :/
    Ime, people who just hittrade the way you describe it all suck and fail.
    Also, nothing to do with gambling, it’s perfectly possible to react and adapt in most situations. (Subject to feints with some particular weps adn/or connection)


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