Observation: Messer lookdown OH / instahits



  • So, I think I know why these these “instahits” make the Messer kinda OP under certain circumstances.
    ^Just to be clear, I don’t really consider dragged OHs (instahits) as exploits or ez mode; most of the time you can react fast enough and parry them with sufficient skill.

    Anyway, a Messer Knight usually does a dragged riposte at facehug range (with any kind of playable ping (0-80), mind you). You might get insta hit as a result. Then comes the combo, a second hit (usually dragged). If he’s still at facehug range, one of the SHIT TIER stabs in the whole Chivalry (Messer’s) might get you another pretty quick hit, which is kinda absurd.
    Then a kick and you are dead.

    We all know that some desyncs might happen here, that the opponent’s model might go into recovery in between combos, or the tracer might hit you earlier than the animation plays out (Hopefully TB will polish these some day).

    Anyway, that’s not the point of my idea.

    I was trying stuff with the Messer and I noticed that if you throw a lookdown overhead, the blade’s length is short enough that you barely scratch the floor (the sound of hitting it plays, though not as strong as if you crouch and OH).
    That means you can go into combo pretty easily.
    With the Longsword and the LoW, slightly longer weapons, dragged OHs usually hit the floor if you are not careful enough. Well, the Messer almost NEVER touches the floor. That’s why it’s pretty easy to be so aggressive without consequences. I mean, you rarely end up looking as far down as required to actually hit the floor with sufficient strength (and stop your chance to combo).

    The messer is supposedly quite heavy, and the butcher’s messer specially looks like one heavy piece of steel. Is there anyway to add some ‘weight’ to the Messer’s tracer when they do a lookdown overhead?
    That would get them a hit, sure, but they would not be able to go into combo so easily.

    Any other thoughts about the Messer? I’ve been playing K a long time and you can never relax when you fight against a Messer Knight. I still do pretty well against the best in my sv, so idk.



  • if the messer knight is dragging his combo just fast kick him to flinch him out of release

    this doesnt work vs longsword and SoW because people dont slow their attacks nearly as much with them and their lookdowns will hit you before you can even kick

    super dragged longsword overheads are fast kickable tho keep it in mind



  • The problem with kick is it doesn’t have proper tracers and it’s an unreliable piece of shit.



  • The insta hit is just one of the few things wrong with it. The fact that if you are not attacking and pressuring the Messer user fast enough, he will just be forcing hit trades against you because the wind up is so short for a Knight primary. Most Knights know this and non-Knights suffer versus the high damage LMB/OH.

    And if the Messer Knight has the initiative, which he usually always should be unless you are out of his range, then this leaves him open to drag, feint, combo until his hearts content.



  • What you want is to complicated, the amount of work and fine tuning requiered to high and its to late in the games lifecycle.
    The Messer just has very good winup times for the dmg it does. Everything is able to insta overhead but the messer can also do overhead delay. This is the real problem, not knowing then a delay or a instanthit comes is on of the last game breakers.
    If both players have 60+ ping you cant know when to block before the point of no return is reached



  • Too not to, and certainly not two.



  • maybe im just ahead of the meta or something i dont have issues with messers

    its always the sow feints that get me

    just fast kick them if they drag too much ez pz, if you get them in release they will lose stamina from being kicked and from missing



  • what about reverse crouch lean-back overheads smarty pants? some insta hits happen in that warp field too



  • Fast kick is too risky, you’ll end up getting your foot chopped off in the time it takes for the game to decide whether you kicked or not. Parrying is easy enough most of the time but I sure as hell am not going to try and gamble on a fast kick working or not.



  • it usually breaks on uneven terrain



  • I like using the messer for shits and giggles, but it’s pretty dumb and broken.



  • @Oy:

    The problem with kick is it doesn’t have proper tracers and it’s an unreliable piece of shit.

    Sadly this is true. I find it works more often than not, but on rare occasions, it goes STRAIGHT through the opponents player model at perfect range.



  • It only fails me when failure will result in a grisly, unavoidable death.



  • @zombojoe:

    it usually breaks on uneven terrain

    yeah, that plays a part, I guess. I have to remind myself not to throw fast kicks when on ladders and shit.

    With the forward momentum of a charging knight and a little footwork it’s kind of easy to get around a kick and throw a very fast dragged OH/stab*/LMB in the process. with uneven terrain, you’re probably fucked anyway.

    • ground sniffers are the worst and Messer stabs look confusingly weird.


  • TheFunnySide, this is good timing just for you:

    http://youtu.be/8Gv0H-vPoDc



  • The problem is it has such a strong instant overhead (the windup is so close to longsword it isn’t even funny, check the spreadsheet) aswell as being a 2hit weapon on pretty much every class where as sow and ls will struggle with 3hit 4hit in certain cases. What this means is messer players just go for hit trade hit trade hit trade esp with broken flinch. The weapon is supposed to be slow.

    They should decrease the release time on the oh and increase the windup while maintaining the same animation length.



  • Although I might be biased, I think the messer is pefect as it is :D

    If anything I’d rather see some other less utilised weapons being buffed slightly



  • @KILLBANDS:

    The problem is it has such a strong instant overhead (the windup is so close to longsword it isn’t even funny, check the spreadsheet) aswell as being a 2hit weapon on pretty much every class where as sow and ls will struggle with 3hit 4hit in certain cases. What this means is messer players just go for hit trade hit trade hit trade esp with broken flinch. The weapon is supposed to be slow.

    They should decrease the release time on the oh and increase the windup while maintaining the same animation length.

    Definitely agree about the wind up time increase, but not about the release time shortening. That would be a pretty heavy nerf. Without the current wind up (which I think everyone agrees is too short), dragging would be the only thing going for the messer; remove that and it’s trash tier.



  • It’s no fun being hittraded and flinched by the Messer all the time, even when I’m using the Double Axe (and Messer has just a 0,05 faster windup, nothing more!)

    1. Increase wind up time, don’t touch the release.

    2. Fix 2handed flinch times already.



  • You see a messer knight? Get ready to cftp the whole fight. When I’m expecting the hittrades, I aways fall for the delayed slash and the oposite is also true.

    I guess its range is the only thing that don’t place messer in the god tier weapons, I find that sometimes its easy to dance on messer knights.


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