Greatsword vs billhook and bardiche discussion



  • Let us take a minute appreciate the less used weapons in MW, the billhook and the bardiche, and yes they are once again clearly outclassed by the greatsword, what a surprise.

    Reason why I left halberd out is because it has that super extra reach that makes it unique, though it would most likely be outclassed as well if it had not that.

    -Both bardiche and billhook supposedly have longer reach than greatsword, at least according to wolfy’s spreadsheets but I did some tests and greatsword has clearly longer reach than even bardiche on a slash and is somehow tied on an overhead (with bardiche, billhook lost in both categories). The polearms do however have longer reach on their stabs, how useful for bardiche…

    Greatsword vs billhook
    -Greatsword can two-shot vanguard if at least one attack is overhead or stab, billhook can only two-shot vanguard if one of the attacks is stab. Billhook can however reliably three-shot knights even with slashes only while greatsword can only do so if at least one attack is an overhead or stab. Finally greatsword deals a lot more damage vs archers and men at arms overally, it can even decapitate archers with overheads or slash while billhook can’t.

    -Billhook has 0.05 seconds longer slash and overhead wind-up but 0.05 shorter releases which frankly makes greatsword win again. Billhook however has much faster stab (GS 0.7/0.45 vs B 0.6/0.4 wind-up/release)

    -Greatsword has more convenient attack animations (much more dragable overhead), handle-hits, and much better charge attack. Also that dumb alternate overhead on billhook…

    -Billhook has shorter recovery times but greatsword has faster combos.

    Conclusion: Billhook has better stabs and the ability to reliably three-shot knights with any attacks but looses against any other class, is slower and is shorter. (even if we take the possible nerf to greatsword- overhead wind-up 0.5>0.55)
    Possible solutions:
    a) Make billhook faster
    b) Make billhook do more damage against knights (percentual bonus vs class?)
    c) Greatly augment stabs of billhook and make it like a spear with slashing and combo capabilities (like a shorter halberd)

    Greatsword vs Bardiche
    -Bardiche can reliably oneshot archers even on a bodyshot but only with overhead, not slash, greatsword can do so with both but only on a headshot. Bardiche can also one-shot men-at-arms on a headshot and deals more damage than a greatsword but only with its overhead, greatsword deals more damage with slashes than bardiche. Bardiche deals more damage against vanguards and can reliably two-shot them with slashes while greatsword needs at least one stab or slash with bodyshots only. Finally bardiche can also reliably three-shot knights as both slashes and overheads deal the same amount of damage against them.

    -Bardiche has completely useless stab in damage area. It does have 0.2 faster wind-up but deals only 40 damage and is only good for flinches and finishers, somehow not using the range advantage on stab to any effect.

    -Bardiche is significantly slower on wind-ups but has the same length of release. Slash wind-up is 0.1 slower and overhead 0.5 slower.

    -Bardiche has slower recoveries and combos.

    -Greatsword has more convenient attack animations (much more dragable overhead), handle-hits, and much better charge attack. Also that dumb alternate overhead on bardiche….

    Conclusion: Bardiche does have a bit of an advantage in some damage areas for its speed decrease but lacks a stab while being exactly the same length. It is actually a decent weapon but the problem is that greatsword just performs better with its drags versatility. Should the greatsword ever receive its overhead nerf maybe bardiche will be a lot better choice then.
    Possible solutions:
    a) Nerf greatsword overhead wind-up
    b) Make the stab on it worthwhile, I mean its sharp, why could it not hit for a bit more?

    I do use both billhook and bardiche quite often and with quite a success but it just bugs me know and even see that every time I grab greatsword I just do better. It’s cool to do 2 extra points of damage against knights with billhook and have better stab but it being less effective against any other class and slower and shorter is just bs. Bardiche is indeed quite decent but it’s lack of handle hits, stabs and therefore overall clunkiness (esp. near teammates) just make it feel not worth the hassle although I indeed do enjoy the feeling of chopping archers in half with a single overhead.

    Discuss please.

    tl;dr: Billhook is meh, bardiche is so so, greatsword too good



  • Nerf greatsword before buffing other vanguard weapons, see how it goes.



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  • @Ser:

    Claymore is more dangerous than greatsword methinks.

    I don’t think this thread is going to be taken seriously now.



  • As Monsteri said, using greatsword as a base of comparison for this was a bit off.



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  • I used greatsword because it’s the weapon that is the least likely to receive a nerf without a load of people being butthurt but in my very honest opinion all swords should receive a nerf and get them somehow in line with other weapons, they’ve got the best animations, are the most damaging vs archer and maa while their stabs fares well against vanguard and even knights making them just too versatile. Axes and polearms should be the jack of all trades, not swords.



  • @Martys:

    I used greatsword because it’s the weapon that is the least likely to receive a nerf without a load of people being butthurt but in my very honest opinion all swords should receive a nerf and get them somehow in line with other weapons, they’ve got the best animations, are the most damaging vs archer and maa while their stabs fares well against vanguard and even knights making them just too versatile. Axes and polearms should be the jack of all trades, not swords.

    I’d rather buff the other weapons than nerf all swords.

    Edit: Ser Rebral Palsy’s posts have all gone from every thread?



  • Billhook is in a very good place at the moment with very fast stabs, deceptive reach / stab animation, and reliable hits to kill on all classes. The billhook’s speed allows the vanguard to effectively counter other fast weapons, include norse / broad sword man at arms.
    The billhook is designed to be a stab based weapon, and it effectively plays that role. The greatsword cannot come close to the billhook when comparing the potency of stab attacks. The only thing making greatsword stab even valuable is the long release window for dragging it.

    I’d rather see the greatsword be nerfed before the billhook gets buffed.

    Also reducing the windup on a weapon isn’t necessarily a buff… it’s a change in playstyle. If you made the billhook stabs faster it would lose some ability to drag (which it doesn’t have much of), making the weapon more one dimensional and reducing overall range (wind up can be factored into overall range considering you’re covering ground while the windup is occurring).

    About the bardiche, it fulfills an anti-archer role considering one overhand can one shot an archer to the torso, and it has the ability to one shot a man at arms to the head.

    Also that dumb alternate overhead on bardiche….

    That alternate overhand can be dragged with great potency, especially if you throw a couple of lookdown overhands before attempting a delayed alt overhand to which case it looks like you’re about to do an accelerated overhand, and freaks the enemy into an early parry.

    To reiterate, I think the bardiche and billhook are fine. I don’t want to see either of these weapons changed. I want the greatsword to be reduced in potency since at the moment the greatsword can supersede the bardiche in the niche of strong overhand attacks, speed, and ability to drag.



  • You are comparing a known overpowered weapon with no weakness, with weapons that have their place amongst the others. It doesn’t make sense, nerf Greatsword.



  • Don’t touch the billhook, it’s probably one of the few well balanced weapons in Chiv and is incredibly underrated. Bardiche is really just an alternative Polehammer with a crappy stab but a better slash.

    Greatsword and swords in general just out class the other weapon trees but once suitable nerfs/buffs come, new meta can be developed and weapons (re)discovered.



  • Don’t touch the other vanguard weapons they’re all strong in their own right. GS is OP and is better than everything, just nerf it and other weapons will be used.



  • buff everything else ^



  • So thread success? Everybody agrees that GS needs more than a 0.05 second overhead nerf?

    This brings a happy face, now flame GS some more.



  • only vanguard sword worth using if you want to maintain manliness is secondary tier saber

    you’re a rather large penis if use anything else



  • I main the billhook. No need to buff it. I think a buff would make it go from underrated to overused. I’ve never really struggled against a greatsword user… though I rarely see very good players using it. Generally their strategy boils down to riposte lookdown overhead or when you go for an attack, they immediately go for the lookdown strike, lol. Though, those can be tough to counter sometimes.

    The vanguard swords have no weaknesses though. Easy to slay noobs with and easy for noobs to slay with. They’re all really effective against every class, one on one and in group fights. The worst part is that ridiculously broken lunge. I guess a slight nerf would be okay.

    Can’t really comment on the bardiche, never really cared for it and never see anyone use it.



  • Don’t buff the polearms, just nerf the GS already.



  • Billhooooooooook #1.



  • The polearms are fine, just gave them a go recently and yeah, they perform about the same as most other weapons. Don’t buff them.

    The greatsword needs a nerf, that is all (oh and get rid of Brandi).



  • I find that the Halberd is the worse polearm now. I really see no advantages in it that a zweihander doesn’t have.


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