Hit trading idea



  • As it stands with .8 flinch, hit trades happen a lot when someone lands a strike, attempts a combo, and then hit trades during their combo with the other person who was spamming out an attack. (yes I know flinch is being changed to .9 but hit trades will still happen).

    I have no issue with low flinch times. In fact I think they are good for the game.
    My issue is that when I go for a hit trade with some spam noob (doesn’t have to be a noob, many good players abuse this mechanic), and I hit him first, it leaves me on the defensive.

    This is why (assume we both have long swords):

    1. P1 starts a swing.
    2. P2 starts a swing .2 seconds later.
    3. P1 hits P2 just after P2 enters release.
    4. P2 hits P1.
    5. P2 finishes swing and enters flinch
    6. P1 finishes swing and enter flinch.
    7. P2 is ready to attack again.
    8. P1 is ready to attack again.

    As you can see, P1 was clearly ahead before the hit trade, seeing as he hit first.
    After the hit trade trade P1 is still in recovery while P2 can do what he likes.

    Why should P1 be punished for landing the first blow in the hit trade?
    Being the first person to land a blow in a hit trade should leave you with initiative for the next attack, not wondering if the other guy is gonna spam out another attack before you can do anything.

    If this was fixed I would have no problem with .8 flinch staying. But as it is, many good players just always go for hit trades because even if the other player combos perfectly, the slower person in the trade gets in a better position.

    Potential fixes:
    Well, as I mentioned above, the player who lands a strike first in the trade should have initiative after the trade.

    Perhaps simply adding a longer flinch to someone who is hit while swinging would work.
    It would be an easy fix. Simply check if P2 is in a swing when he is hit, if so, add .2 or .3 to his flinch time.
    This could be problematic as well though. Someone could be hit from behind while swinging and they would have a longer flinch time for no reason.

    Any other fixes would probably be very difficult to implement.
    Reducing P1’s flinch would be much harder to check for, but would ensure a hit trade actually happened and would keep gameplay fast and smooth.

    Any other fix ideas are welcome!

    please stay on topic!



  • They’re already increasing .8 flinch to .9 flinch. No more need for discussion on the matter.



  • @Noxin:

    They’re already increasing .8 flinch to .9 flinch. No more need for discussion on the matter.

    Pretty sure that isn’t what the thread is about, and increasing the flinch time by .1 won’t change all that much in the current hit trade meta, people are still going to attempt to force trades with their GS/Messer/GMace and come out on top unless their attack damage is equal or lesser.

    What needs to be addressed is the fact that you lose the initiative if you hit first. A combo doesn’t have to be involved, it means that the person that gets hit first gains the initiative in that they leave the flinch state earlier. At least I think that’s what OP is getting at.



  • What needs to be addressed is the fact that you lose the initiative if you hit first. A combo doesn’t have to be involved, it means that the person that gets hit first gains the initiative in that they leave the flinch state earlier. At least I think that’s what OP is getting at.

    With .9 flinch this doesn’t happen. This was a problem caused solely by .8 flinch.



  • they’re also increasing the windup globally on weapons which will also help this.

    Also, no one is forcing you to constantly just go for the hit first meta… play smarter.

    the only way to hit someone is not by just seeing who can swing first.



  • comboparry is your friend during hittrades.



  • I thank you guys for the tips about combo parries etc. but perhaps you missed the point of my post.

    LTTLWTF, thank you for taking the time to read my post and understand what I am saying. You nailed it.

    Let me try to rephrase the issue:

    I hit trade with someone, but I hit him first during the trade – meaning I had initiative(advantage) before the hit trade.
    After the hit trade, since I hit him first, he recovers sooner and gains initiative. – I am now on defense and lost my advantage.

    It makes no sense that being the second person to hit during a trade leaves you in a better spot than the other player.
    It is really frustrating because it happens so much due to .8 flinch, but it is a problem regardless of flinch length.

    Hitting someone first in a trade obviously means you were the faster/better player. Why should you be punished after by being on the defensive?



  • I would also like to mention that I know how to feint to parry and everything, but sometimes I would rather just go for the trade,
    or sometimes you notice the trade too late and you have to do it.

    I would not be worried about it so much except for the fact that this issue, paired with low flinch times, means spamming off attacks with no thought is often the best thing to do.

    -Many new players learn to just spam attacks in all scenarios because even though they were the slower person in the trade they gain the advantage afterwards.

    -Many veterans will just spam attacks between another player’s combos because they know that even when they are the slower person in the trade it leaves them with initiative on the next strike (and they will just do a lookdown feint at your groin which is near impossible to detect, giving them another free hit). This become extremely prevalent in high level duels. (any high dmg weapon)



  • idgi why does he finish his swing before you?



  • He gets hit first, so his flinch is also over first. Confused me for a sec too but I dunno why, it’s pretty simple.



  • @Xylvion:

    comboparry is your friend during hittrades.

    maybe 1vN, still not as reliable as cftp/ftp



  • @ashvins:

    maybe 1vN, still not as reliable as cftp/ftp

    We were talking hittrades here, you can easily hit a person then block his attack with a comboparry. CFtP is better in most other situations though.


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