Is messer OP? If so, what makes it OP?



  • I often see people calling the messer OP, and asking for a nerf, but I haven’t figured out what makes it so strong and stand out from the other options. Enlighten me please?

    My personal favourite is the warhammer because fast attack, high damage, I still use the messer because it looks cool though.



  • I think some of it is that other knight weapons, with exception of SoW, are just so much much worse than Messer. Personally I think its short reach and to a lesser extent, lack of a decent stab are downsides enough.

    Some people seem to think it’s overhead is too fast but I personally never had an issue parrying it. At least messer has some disadvantages unlike GS.



  • Windup time on overheads (and arguably on slashes) is too short. It’s fairly easy to see an accelerated overhead coming if your opponent has low ping, but anything over 80 and being able to properly react to them becomes a lot harder. This affects ripostes and normal swings alike.

    That, and the 2-handed slash can onehit a MAA if you hit him in the head. These things together with long release times (VERY draggable) makes the Messer have no significant weaknesses other than short range (E: which thanks to the short windup times is not really a weakness unless you want to catch a MAA with a riposte).



  • @Fang:

    Windup time on overheads (and arguably on slashes) is too short. It’s fairly easy to see an accelerated overhead coming if your opponent has low ping, but anything over 80 and being able to properly react to them becomes a lot harder. This affects ripostes and normal swings alike.

    That, and the 2-handed slash can onehit a MAA if you hit him in the head. These things together with long release times makes the Messer have no significant weaknesses other than short range (E: which thanks to the short windup times are not really weaknesses unless you want to catch a MAA with a riposte).

    Game shouldn’t be balanced around players with 80+ ping though.

    And using messer against Maa in the hope to get that 1hit to head is pretty silly, there are much better options available than messer for dealing with Maa.



  • @gndo:

    Game shouldn’t be balanced around players with 80+ ping though.

    And using messer against Maa in the hope to get that 1hit to head is pretty silly, there are much better options available than messer for dealing with Maa.

    You are right; the game should be balanced for low ping (which it is now) but that causes a lot of issues on highly populated servers where many players may have pings close to 100. Like the GS, the Messer imo could use a little nerf on the windup speed, seeing as there are no other knight weapons with comparable damage and speed. I think the damage is fine since you can’t 2-shot knights that easily but even for 120hz players with low ping the windup times are really short. Thankfully the flinch time is now longer which makes it easier to avoid spam hit trades from the Messer; that alone is a nerf of some kind.



  • messer is fine, buff the other weapons



  • @CRUSHED:

    messer is fine, buff the other weapons

    I would rather see LS to be buffed than Messer to be nerfed. Messer is fine for experienced players (and I believe that’s how the game should be balanced) but making it a little slower would not make it totally obsolete; more a niche than an all-around-chop-everyone.



  • Players can easily outrun messer feint unless you sprint at them and feint into slash attack. Even then it’s possible for them to get lucky and avoid it. Pretty big downside imo.



  • @gndo:

    Players can easily outrun messer feint unless you sprint at them and feint into slash attack. Even then it’s possible for them to get lucky and avoid it. Pretty big downside imo.

    Well yeah that’s the range disadvantage I was talking about, you can run away from it even as a knight. If you want to use a sword and be effective against knights I think Messer is still your best bet because of the 1-hit on lighter classes and 2-hit on knights.

    LS needs to be buffed, Messer doesn’t need to be nerfed if we keep the pubbers’ opinions out of the conversation.



  • The messer isn’t really OP. It’s just one of the very few viable options knights have so most of the best knights use it, which in turn makes it popular and seem OP to people because they were outskilled by the worst class in the game. The longsword and SoW are vastly inferior to it, as well as many other knight weapons. Knights have received nothing but nerfs.

    Other weapons need to be brought up to its level.



  • the messer has the same problems that the greatsword its to good its easy to drag and has great dmg though youll only see the skilled players who pretty much just OH drag spam with it be a threat though



  • @Tombstone:

    the messer has the same problems that the greatsword its to good its easy to drag and has great dmg though youll only see the skilled players who pretty much just OH drag spam with it be a threat though

    Greatsword has none of the disadvantages that messer has though.



  • “Other weapons need to be brought up to its level.” Wouldn’t it be easier to bring it down to the level of the rest of the weapons?



  • @Agent:

    “Other weapons need to be brought up to its level.” Wouldn’t it be easier to bring it down to the level of the rest of the weapons?

    What they need to do, is revert Long Sword and SoW damage back to their launch values. You vanguards don’t know what pain is!



  • @gndo:

    Greatsword has none of the disadvantages that messer has though.

    the only disadvantages that I see are that the messer is shorter and doesn’t have a good stab



  • @Tombstone:

    the only disadvantages that I see are that the messer is shorter and doesn’t have a good stab

    Which are fair disadvantages if you have spent time using it against good players.



  • It’s a good weapon but I don’t think it needs to be nerf’d. The only problem I can see with it is the riposte OH is a little to fast for how much damage it does. I think people are basing there issues with messer off of there experience dueling against it and the fact that LS isn’t very good. SOW is better in a lot of team play situations which is really what we should be balancing around.



  • @Agent:

    “Other weapons need to be brought up to its level.” Wouldn’t it be easier to bring it down to the level of the rest of the weapons?

    So just nerf knight even more? Why? Do you know how many unviable weapons knights have? The messer isn’t OP. Longsword needs to be reverted, SoW needs slight buffs as well as just about every other knight weapon. Then you have knight secondaries that no one uses any more since MaA buffs, vanguard knock back, stamina drain, and no more forward chase.



  • I can’t be the only one here that feels the messer overheads are wonky. The animations for the overhead makes lookdowns seem close to instant and the riposte overheads are insane. Combine that with how the messer also releases over the shoulder allowing for easy cross bodied waterfall hits. Overheads pretty much the only attack I see people using with the messer in duels/scrims.



  • Why I think it’s slightly OP

    • On proper hands, the CFtP is usually too responsive/fast. I don’t see why it should be on par with SoW and LS in that regard as it’s supposedly a heavy ass piece of metal.
    • Overhead (OH) does chop damage
    • 2-3 hit combos with a lot of dragging can desync quite easily
    • vertical turn rate in ripostes can be a bitch
    • it’s short enough that it doesn’t hit the floor when doing lookdown OHs, so it’s quite easy to do OH combos even on inclines.
    • thanks to the knockback after that first hit, said combos at facehug range require you to gamble on your parry as they’re usually perceived as “instahits”.

    Mind you, I don’t mean instahits in the sense of superfast/unparriable hits. It’s just that the animations are wonky or have too few frames when accelerated. For a weapon with such HUGE damage, specially for the OH, I’d like the animations to be smooth as fuck so I don’t die in 2 hits one of which I probably won’t be seeing clearly.
    Also, the issue with the combo “instahits” is not exclusive to the Messer, you can do that with almost any 2H on any class (minus the Zwei, probably).

    tl;dr: it’s exploitable


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