Other ideas for archers are dumb so here's mine



  • Archers are pretty overpowered, high damage, ridiculous range and simple mechanics. Other people have suggested damage nerfs (global or just to torso and legs) and stamina drain. Archers need high damage to be viable because of how low their own health is and stamina drain makes no sense what so ever. Stamina drain on drawing bows or reloading crossbows only makes archers, the weakest melee class, even weaker in melee or it limits how frequently they can shoot because they’ll have to wait for their stamina to regenerate and that’s no fun.

    Archer balance should be focused on implementing mechanics to raise the skill ceiling and reward those who can meet the new requirements.

    For Bows:
    Introduce a timing mechanic - you draw the bow and then have to wait for a time window where your accuracy is perfect, if you fire before or after this window you’ll miss (by about 15 degrees in a random direction). This window of perfect accuracy should be longer for shortbows and shorter for warbows, so the shortbow would be easier to fire accurately but do less damage and the warbow would do lots of damage but require better timing to hit your target.

    Timing could be indicated by the swaying animation of the bow and/or the size of the crosshair (shrinking and expanding) and the amount of the time in the window can be extended by crouching (just so crouching plays a role in accuracy).

    For Crossbows:
    Crossbows in this game are meant to be long range and timing doesn’t make sense for the crossbow’s design. I suggest making the reload times more dynamic, if you hit your target your next reload takes as long as it currently does, if you miss your next reload takes more time and if you hit a teammate it takes even longer. Maybe the reload time could be made faster after killing a target. Also, to encourage and reward long distance shots damage should be proportional to distance, is you hit someone from point blank range it does very little damage but if you hit someone from across the map it’ll do full damage.

    Javelins and slings are fine in my opinion if they have flinch and javelins do less melee damage and slings could be a little faster.

    On top of this I suggest slower projectile speed and a proper arch trajectory for all weapons so you need to put more thought into your shot when leading a target. Accuracy penalties should apply when moving or jumping, similar to Counter Strike. Finally to replace the backstab damage, give the archers slightly faster health regeneration because if they take any damage the next hit will kill them.



  • http://www.better-english.com/easier/theyre.htm

    @Gentleman:

    For Bows:
    Introduce a timing mechanic - you draw the bow and then have to wait for a time window where your accuracy is perfect, if you fire before or after this window you’ll miss (by about 15 degrees in a random direction). This window of perfect accuracy should be longer for shortbows and shorter for warbows, so the shortbow would be easier to fire accurately but do less damage and the warbow would do lots of damage but require better timing to hit your target.

    Timing could be indicated by the swaying animation of the bow and/or the size of the crosshair (shrinking and expanding) and the amount of the time in the window can be extended by crouching (just so crouching plays a role in accuracy).

    For Crossbows:
    Crossbows in this game are meant to be long range and timing doesn’t make sense for the crossbow’s design. I suggest making the reload times more dynamic, if you hit your target your next reload takes as long as it currently does, if you miss your next reload takes more time and if you hit a teammate it takes even longer. Maybe the reload time could be made faster after killing a target. Also, to encourage and reward long distance shots damage should be proportional to distance, is you hit someone from point blank range it does very little damage but if you hit someone from across the map it’ll do full damage.

    This would only nerf bows and buff crossbows even more.

    @Gentleman:

    Javelins and slings are fine in my opinion if they have flinch and javelins do less melee damage and slings could be a little faster.

    ♡ Yes please, faster and flinching slings please, TBS? ♡

    @Gentleman:

    On top of this I suggest slower projectile speed and a proper arch trajectory for all weapons so you need to put more thought into your shot when leading a target. Accuracy penalties should apply when moving or jumping, similar to Counter Strike. Finally to replace the backstab damage, give the archers slightly faster health regeneration because if they take any damage the next hit will kill them.

    This could actually cause some change. The accuracy penalties don’t need to be strong but they should be there.



  • These ideas are superior to other ideas???

    Buff shields so people use them. That’s the obvious thing to do. Reimplement tap block and lower leg damage down to 25%. Shields are now useful again.

    Nothing in this game should be useless.



  • @lemonater47:

    These ideas are superior to other ideas???

    Buff shields so people use them. That’s the obvious thing to do. Reimplement tap block and lower leg damage down to 25%. Shields are now useful again.

    Nothing in this game should be useless.

    What about people who don’t like using shields? and vanguards?



  • @gndo:

    What about people who don’t like using shields? and vanguards?

    In lemon’s world everyone is playing knight with shield and smokepot.



  • Lemon, shields and smoke pots are pretty bad and they could use a buff but if no changes are made to the archer then what’s the difference between a skilled archer and noob? If you can’t see your target through the smoke or simply can’t do damage because they have a shield then there is no difference. That’s forgetting the issue of archers still being OP against people who don’t want to use a shield.

    and INerevar, about the crossbows being buffed I forgot to mention that crossbow reload shouldn’t be cancel able (make it flinchable though). So if someone gets close, you’re screwed because low damage up close and if you try to reload they get a free hit (especially if you missed the last shot). They’ll only be viable at range which would be much harder to do with the slower projectile speed and adjusted arch. If the crossbow does turn out to be too good compared to the bow, maybe make the accuracy penalties for movement worse for just the crossbow.

    honestly, I’m just throwing ideas out for more interesting way to adjust the archer. Way I see it, a weapon’s difficulty should be proportional to its damage, like how the maul does a lot of damage but has no reach or speed, and I just don’t think that currently applies to the archer.



  • Javelins are fine? This thread must be a joke.



  • Incoming wall of text.

    Your idea for bows is good, except I think the lengths of time should be identical across the bows to maintain some form of consistency, yet instead of having to wait for a certain amount of time, I’d like to see the most accurate release phase being immediately after the bow is drawn to the ready position, with a steady decay in accuracy from there (ie- draw>release being more accurate than draw>hold>release).

    I also think the range/damage trade off for the crossbows should be the opposite, they should punch hardest at close range and do less damage at long range, especially if you plan on keeping the arrow drop (or lack of) the same as it currently is.


    In terms of balancing out bows vs crossbows I think the effects of each projectile needs to be addressed.

    Stick with me here.

    For bows at the moment, broadheads only do superior damage to archers, whilst bodkins are better against the other 3 classes. I think if we changed how the ammo types worked we could balance out the damage system as well as bring back the support archer role.

    Broadheads are your best anti-archer tool, but they should also be the most effective ammo for MaA due to their light armour, whilst doing very little against the heavier classes.

    Bodkins on the other hand should be more effective against the heavier classes, yet instead of doing heavy damage, they should do moderate composite damage, removing a small chunk of health and stamina.


    Crossbows on the other hand do decent damage to all 4 classes, but do more to the lighter classes than the heavier classes, which should be reversed.

    As such, crossbows, being the power-packed single shot railguns that they are should be the most damaging to the heavier classes, causing severe piercing damage at close range, whilst having a somewhat lesser effect on the lighter classes.

    This gives us 3 different ammo types for 3 different roles across 2 weapon trees.

    Broadhead - Long/medium range for dealing high damage to lighter classes.
    Bodkin - Long/medium range for dealing moderate damage to health and stamina.
    Crossbows - Medium/short range for dealing high damage to heavier classes.

    From this, you could create multiple playstyles for each bow/crossbow.
    Examples:
    Standard long range counter-archer build with Warbow/broadheads
    Mid range melee support with Shortbow/bodkins, leaving the enemy team bruised and fatigued
    Mid range heavy-crossbow for decimating knights.
    Close range light-crossbow for turning vanguards into swiss cheese.

    Slings I feel would also benefit from the combined health/stamina damage.

    Javelins on the other hand, I have no idea where to start with.

    This is all probably too much of a drastic change to the system to be considered, but ideas can still be thrown around and sampled from.



  • Shields still need to be buffed.



  • shields got buffed man, it’s called stamina buff. They soak up hits/damage. They block arrows decently too, all but the buckler shield which arrows seem to go right through. I was all about nerfing archers, certain weapons could still use a little damage nerf but other than that the nerf they did is a solid one. Point blank shots do not go unpunished anymore, their melee doesn’t do superior damage to every class, etc… but they’re still totally viable. Can’t count how many times i topped the scoreboard today with archer and i don’t even main archer nor am I that good at it. Still can destroy knights, vanguards, maa, other archers with the shortsword.

    People need to learn situational awareness moreso now, go for less point blank shots and know when it’s time to melee up. Charge attacks are an even harder counter to archers now and it’s good they got a nerf.

    Now, for crossbows, i think the pull up time to the time they can shoot should be increased. I hate when they have their crossbow down, then it insta lifts and shoots you for a 1 hit kill. Should be some time between the point where they raise the bow to aim and can fire. No more of this shotgun bullshit. Bows are in a decent place, still annoying but we don’t want to nerf them too much. Maybe a slight damage nerf on warbow and HCB and i’d be ok with that. But even now, the nerfs they got were good ones and don’t make them useless. In fact, they’re about just as powerful now as they always were, but manageable now. Removing flinch is a godsend.



  • I do sort of agree with Lemon though. Now that their annoying-as-hell flinch has been removed, I don’t think it’s wise to continue on nerfing the Archer on their damage.

    Come on, when was the last time an experienced Archer actually gave a fuck about a shield? There’s always an area exposed.
    Same for smokepots. Just take 3 steps to the right and you have a clear shot again.

    How TB should go about buffing shields (ONLY against projectiles), I’m not sure. Increasing the hitbox is a terrible idea.

    But imo how to buff smokepots is obvious. Increased radius and possibly fuck up the Archer’s screen somehow to avoid an immediate clear shot once he steps out of the smoke.



  • How about, make projectile flinch work same as melee flinch.
    Reduce projectile speed and range.
    -25-35% damage reduction across the board, except for headshots.
    Keep projectile damage on archers the same.

    Might be nice to test having slightly faster hp regen when crouching (for all classes) to see how this plays out with above changes.

    Not sure if that will be too much, it would need testing.



  • Here you go, I made a very artistic drawing about current projectile drop.

    The upper half is the current range drop in Chivalry, the lower half is how it realistically should be.
    This would also add more skill to landing good shots.



  • ^It’s like gravity isn’t present at first. Wait, is this a realism argument? :D



  • Give them back flinch ability but a damage reduction for all bows. No more ability to one shot any class, even headshots. Bring back the delay when switching from bow to melee weapon like it used to be. That would eliminate the point blank shots, insta switch to sword/parries. Stamina drain when aiming as well.



  • I seriously think that changing the projectile drop on arrows and crossbow bolts will be a huge step into the right direction.
    Getting sniped from a long distance in a melee game might be frustrating, but I’d be less frustrated about it if I knew the Archer who shot me took time to carefully plan his shot, judging from the distance how far he had to aim up.

    http://youtu.be/OU9MfvhAL78



  • Actually the arrow flight in Chiv is more correct than you think.
    Drag on arrows affects the arc, it isn’t a constant arc. In Chiv, it is exaggerated though.

    https://sites.google.com/site/technicalarchery/technical-discussions-1/trajectory



  • how about increasing headshot dmg multipliers and reducing torso dmg

    its so simple you can do it with the editor



  • @Toll:

    Actually the arrow flight in Chiv is more correct than you think.
    Drag on arrows affects the arc, it isn’t a constant arc. In Chiv, it is exaggerated though.

    https://sites.google.com/site/technicalarchery/technical-discussions-1/trajectory

    And the same trajectories apply to all ranged weapons. Throwing axes and javelins which have far lower air resistance and have flatter trajectory. Not in this game.



  • @zombojoe:

    how about increasing headshot dmg multipliers and reducing torso dmg

    its so simple you can do it with the editor

    Many pick broadheads when bodkins would be just as good? Lowering the broadhead damage of warbows by 1 will make broadheads useless. A body shot on an archer does exactly 100 damage.


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