How is current MAA dodge in any way defensible as a gameplay mechanic?



  • @Hammertime:

    MAA in it’s current gimp form is easily defeatable. Make him dodge twice and then you have the advantage in the stamina mini game.

    Unless they casually walk backwards almost as quickly as a Knight sprint.



  • Let’s see what a good maa is supposed to do NOW, vs what a good maa was supposed to do BEFORE, in order to see the current state of MAA, shall we?

    But first of all, let’s consider what a GOOD MAA in any case should be able to do:
    -Parry any attack (going from side attacks, to reading feints…cough gamble, drags, accelerated hits, counterattacks etc).
    -Perform any attack (coughgamblecoughfeints, comboes, side stabs, side stab comboes, accelerated, reverse etc)
    -Dodge, pretty basic, the enemy attack you dodge and attack.
    -Feint to parry
    -Combo to parry
    -Read the enemy movements and try to use the faster secondary weapon you have, to anticipate their attacks and FLINCH them.
    -Avoid trading, it results in 1-hit-rekt against strong weapons.

    So basically a NEWBIE Maa player would be probably doing direct attacks, not even trying to go for the side attacks, just going for the dodge-attack->repeat.
    While a SKILLED Maa that has reached the skill cap would try to anticipate the enemy movements, reading if they are going to dodge (against another maa) to attack in that direction, or flinch them, attacking before they do, doing accurate dodges, micro managing his stamina, side attacks etc.

    Well looks like is still so right? Nope (OBVIOUSLY GENERALLY SPEAKING, a skilled maa can still beat a newbie maa). But roughly, imho, things have reversed. Now bad MAAs who all they do is dodge attacking have the advantage against more thoughtful-style minded Maa. Why?

    Because Torn Banner decided to increase all weapons windup to 0.4 seconds and they also removed Flinch in Release on top of that.

    Obviously all the Knights and Vanguards don’t see anything wrong with that, in fact the poll shows at least 40 players who voted no for FiR, against the 13 (me included) who voted yes on it (so now you know on which side am I :P) and now what I see is that there’s even people complaining on the dodge.

    Let me explain why, in my opinion after the latest patch and those two changes I said up there, the MAA is the weakest class out there.

    Currently I have around 800 or more hours as Maa, so I’m kinda biased towards the class, but I’m also honestly trying to bring balance to the game, hoping that someone out there will back me up, with saying that MAA right now is a class that any healthy mind player would avoid playing, at least in competitive-ish contexts (clan wars et similia) or 1v1s against skilled opponents.

    LET’S BEGIN (YES ALL THE ABOVE WAS JUST AN INTRODUCTION :P) TLDR-> START FROM HERE (and then go back up if you got doubts on why I’m telling you this)

    Let’s see what a good maa is supposed to do NOW, vs what a good maa was supposed to do BEFORE, in order to see the current state of MAA, shall we?

    The old playstyle I had was me, going for a trade knowing that slower weapons (but mostly, players whith slow reaction or with an overly defensive playstyle), would get flinched during release time, if I were to attack before them, or roughly at the same time if they had a slower weapon. So the “trade” (that really isn’t a trade, because WEAPON SPEED is actually a relevant stat right??!), would come out unpunished from me.
    That is how I assured victory against knights who tried to go for the trades or those who were overly defensive. Knights who were really good at parrying would still be good with 2handed, those who weren’t could go for 1h to compensate and trade hits where they managed to.

    IF THE enemy was just a counter attacking opponent, I would dodge out and attack. IF they ctp, I would dodge out again, because as you all know, if he were to counterattack and I happened to parry… well parry as a maa is not an option, it’s suicide. (At least that’s the feeling right now after all the recent changes).
    IF THE enemy danced around I’d let him waste stamina, flinching him while he was doing his strange rituals,(still had to be careful not to get a hit tho), but eventually you’d flinch him, stopping the weird combos.
    IF THE enemy was a skilled player with 2h, NOW THAT would be a fair duel, in which I was forced to dodge from time to time, trying go get an edge on him, while he had to have fast reactions ctp or ftp in order to win.
    IF THE enemy had 1h nordic, and shield. (Najo’s playstyle for the Europeans ;) ) You’d have to have really fast reaction times and dodge out aswell to get an edge.
    IF THE enemy was feinting. well f**k feinting, that’s all gambling, no real discussion to be done.

    What happened to the MAA playstyle you’ll say then?

    well going back to my point: “Torn Banner decided to increase all weapons windup to 0.4 seconds and they also removed Flinch in Release on top of that, and reduced flinch time of 2h ot 0.8s”

    What does that mean in ACTUAL gameplay/Playstyle for all MAAs out there?

    It means that knights and vanguards now are in a rampaging new hit trade meta, both in duels and in lot of players vs lot of players situations.
    How does that affect maa? In duels all you can do is dodge out of counter attacks, slowly draining the enemy stamina while he does parry/counterattack/ftp repeat.

    But im the case the enemy is too aggressive, you’re still screwed because there are situations in which you just can’t dodge (vanguards I’m watching your kilometric weapon ranges), and the increased windup time and removal of FiR, made so that going aggressive against a moderately reflex-ready knight ends up with a trade, giving them the huge advantage which is, an hit on a maa.

    What happens tho, if by chance you get to actually hit and flinch your enemy? (His reaction times must be really slow tho, so It happens rarely on more skilled players) They’ll start slowly retreating, bringing in that f****d up meta that is the backpedaling trade meta. I’ve seen opponents that walk from one side of the map to the other, regenerating their hp, and then going for the trade unpunished, occasionally parrying (because they don’t get any actualy stamina drain in that, and because they’ll never get flinched even if they attack after you do with a slower weapon).

    MAA HAS BECOME a slow snail, frail, inadapt to many players vs many players situations (if it wasn’t for the firepots, but still weaker than a good archer)… and now even weaker than ever in duels where at least it used to be kinda “good”. (against less experienced players for sure, but against equal skill it was a fair fight imho).

    Let me repeat, maa can’t even flinch 2 handed anymore. Because of 0.4 windup, because of 0.8 flinch time, because of no more flinch in release, because of bad servers AND because of matrix movements which also help knights and vanguards to trade!!

    And FINALLY, I have to change class, because I don’t want to be a dodging-machine-like MAA player in order to win a duel (which is still useless against back pedaling) when I used to have an edge on opponents if my reactions times were faster!!!

    Thanks Torn Banner for making me change class!

    That is all. Fapnir out.



  • maa need to rely on parrying more instead of blink. I think the stamina cost allowing only 4 dodges was perfect. Giving them ONE extra dodge back was enough to make them overpowered again. ONE FUCKING DODGE changes everything. Everyone was happy with 4 in the beta, then all the maa’s cried and said their class was shit now because they couldn’t dodge everything anymore…

    fucking take it back to 4 man, that was BALANCE. Maa need to adapt. Can’t really cry about armor/squishy class when archer arrows/bolts, mauls, polehammers, brandis, zweis, greatswords, etc exist… knights are squishy in that regard too, but they don’t have footspeed or dodge. Vanguards and archer are also squishy. Being squishy is no longer an argument for why you should be able to blink teleport 5 times and still have stam to miss attacks and feint.



  • archers are more than capable of taking a knight out in melee

    why should maas rely on dodge to do the same?



  • aww nevermind



  • @zombojoe:

    archers are more than capable of taking a knight out in melee

    why should maas rely on dodge to do the same?

    ^ this guy gets it. archer melee is just maa without dodge, and it’s still good as hell.



  • archer melee is only good one vs one and the game is not one vs one.
    MAA have to be able to take multible knights which is almost impossible with current stam costs of dodge and no dodging while comboing



  • Honestly, they should just make Knights OP again, Chiv was the most fun back when everyone was playing knight. Torn Banner has no clue how to balance the light classes, and the fact that they were seemingly designed from the ground up to be annoying doesn’t help.



  • The only issue is that there is dodge out of flinch that makes them capitalize on a mistake, this essentially is a hit trade that gives them the initiative and the ability to combo.
    Remove dodge out of flinch and maybe a slight damage nerf to broadsword and you will see the whole maa meta shift into something else. Maybe it might shift back into oilpot spam again :P

    Also since the handle reduction patch (god bless). Dane axe does seem completely useless imo, it just seems to phase through enemies and do nothing.


  • Global Moderator

    @Rickvs:

    Unless they casually walk backwards almost as quickly as a Knight sprint.

    Good thing MAA backwards is slower than knight walk then.



  • @TheFunnySide:

    archer melee is only good one vs one and the game is not one vs one.
    MAA have to be able to take multible knights which is almost impossible with current stam costs of dodge and no dodging while comboing

    because 1 knight can totally take on 2-3 knights as well. At least the maa can run away or dodge back and then run away to choose a better engagement. If a knight gets stuck he’s pretty fucked and forced to run out of stamina and die.



  • @lemonater47:

    Good thing MAA backwards is slower than knight walk then.

    you sure about that? (serious question) i can’t look at google docs at work



  • It is slower but the dodge distance is so huge that as a knight you’ll have to sprint for 5 seconds to catch up to him again, at which point the maa has regened enough stamina to dodge again.



  • Not to mention that by sprinting up to him the knight is effectively giving the maa the initiative, he’s all open for feints.



  • MAA bakdodge wouldn’t be a problem if it could only be used while not in any sort of flinch state.



  • @Xylvion:

    MAA bakdodge wouldn’t be a problem if it could only be used while not in any sort of flinch state.

    Yes, fix the flinch glitch and introduce a longer cooldown period for stamina regen after dodging. As a knight you could actually challenge a dodging MAA and/or force him to fight you instead of dodging away indefinitely and waiting for your stamina to run out. I think dodge would be fine if on average it was more like a two time thing per engagement.


  • Mod

    @Monsteri:

    It is slower but the dodge distance is so huge that as a knight you’ll have to sprint for 5 seconds to catch up to him again, at which point the maa has regened enough stamina to dodge again.

    No. Not only is a backdodge a stupid move, it wastes 20% stamina, stops stam and health regen, and the only viable move afterwards is a stab. At this point if you’re chasing down maa’s by holding down shift and W towards them you’re doing something wrong.

    Dodge out of flinch is actually unbalanced and unfair. Once that’s fixed maa will be fine. The broadsword’s stabs are still too quick and long for their own good.



  • @Sir:

    Dodge out of flinch is actually unbalanced and unfair.

    How is it supposed to / should be working then?

    Should it prevent you from dodging for 0.8 seconds after getting hit so you might have to block the combo too or should it let you dodge immediately but disable attacking for a longer period of time etc?



  • You guys are talking a lot of nonsense. It’s clear to me that you probably suck with knight. Because any good knight can deal with a maa at the current state of the game.

    Even saying “an archer can take on a knight in one vs one” means that you probably think that level 42 are skilled in this game. What a pointless discussion you guys are bringing on, as if a good knight can’t take on an archer rofl.

    Reducing the dodges? Maa can’t even dodge out of a lot of attacks (vanguards’ ranges or fast counters still hit during a dodge) and parrying is more of a stamina drain than any other class.

    Do you guys rely on feints to win? Because then the discussion changes. Feints are (sadly) the equalizer of skill in this game, them being a gamble.



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