Another Archer thread.



  • We all know that archers are too easy and need changes, so far there has only been changes to damage (And flinch). Which have not made the class any harder. The removal of backstab however made it harder to melee as an archer. In any case changes has to be made to make the class harder, as we all know adding sway while moving would mean that TBS would have to add some new animations so that is probably out of the question, but what could be done then?

    • Stamina drain on drawing a bow/keeping the crossbow in ready position.
    • Lowering velocity of arrows/bolts
    • Lowering multiplier against legs to make shields more viable
    • Increasing the effect of gravity on projectiles
    • Decreasing ammo capacity
    • Increasing drawtime on bows or reload time/ready up timer of crossbows
    • (Perhaps even movement speed, *will be in brackets)
    • Lower fire rate as well, atm a lot of the weapons can fire projectiles really really fast, way too fast even.

    There are a lot of ways other than damage nerfs, which I myself think that TBS should’ve tried from the start.

    I’ll start with the bows as they’re the weapons I probably used the most of all ranged weapons.
    -Shortbow

    • Arrow velocity 5000/5500 -> 4500/4750
    • Gravity 0.5 -> 0.55
    • Max Ammo count 35 -> 25
    • Reload time 1.1 -> 1.2
    • Draw time 0.9 -> 1
    • (Moement 0.75 -> 0.7)

    -Longbow

    • Arrow velocity 5000/5500 -> 4750 -> 5250
    • Gravity 0.4 -> 0.35 (it’s a LONGbow)
    • Max Ammo count 25 -> 20
    • Reload time 1.2 -> 1.4
    • Draw time 1.2 -> 1.35
    • (Movement 0.6 -> 0.55 )

    -Warbow

    • Gravity 0.35 -> 0.45
    • Max Ammo count 20 -> 16
    • Draw time 1.4 -> 1.55
    • Broadhead damage 90 -> 100
    • (Movement 0.45 -> 0.4)

    Now you might ask why I decided to make the arrow drop lower on the longbow while higher on the warbow. The reason is to set them apart, if warbow gets the chance to one hit archers to the torso again the longbow would once again be totally useless. The longbow would have a lower projectile speed but with less drop over longer distances, it wil also be a lot slower than before.

    Now for crossbows: (theese ideas might surprise you, or not)
    -General

    • Ammo Increase 10 -> 5

    -Light Crossbow

    • Velocity 7000/7500 -> 5500/6000
    • Gravity 0.35 -> 0.55
    • Max Ammo count 20 -> 15
    • Reload 2-> 2.5

    -Medium Crossbow

    • Velocity 7000/7500 -> 6000/6250
    • Gravity 0.3 -> 0.5
    • Max Ammo count 15 -> 12
    • Reload 3 -> 3.25

    -Heavy Crossbow

    • Velocity 7200/7700 -> 6250/6500
    • Gravity 0.25 -> 0.45
    • Max Ammo count 12 -> 8
    • Reload 4 -> 4.25

    Why theese changes? as of right now the crossbows are snipers with really high velocity and barely any drop. This would probably bring more crossbowmen closer to the battle and not sitting on the other side of the map being unreachable. The higher drop would also make Longbow the longrange weapon, crossbows got a pavise shield that they can use to guard themselves with, they don’t need to be 100 meters away from the battle.

    Now for the Javelins, which are really hard to balance as you have to be close to use them, but they’re really way too fast for the damage they deal and they got melee capabilities.
    -General

    • Cancel throw feint cost 0 -> 10 (It is basically a feint, javelineers can easily use this as a feint and then get a free stab as the opponent tries to avoid a projectile)

    -Shortspear

    • Velocity 2800/3300 -> 2600/3100
    • Throw cooldown: Nonexistant -> 2
    • Stab Damage 50 -> 45
    • *Reload 0.5 -> 0.35

    -Javelin

    • Velocity 2700/3200 -> 2500/3000
    • Throw cooldown: Nonexistant -> 2.5
    • Stab Damage 60 -> 55
    • *Reload 0.6 -> 0.45
    • Equip up 0.3 -> 0.35

    -Pilum

    • Velocity 2600/3100 -> 2400/2900
    • Throw cooldown: Nonexistant -> 3
    • Stab Damage 70 -> 60
    • *Reload 0.65 -> 0.55

    *Only if Throw cooldown is added.
    Why a throw cooldown? Because it’s needed. Right now the time between each shortspear throw is 1.55 seconds sling with pebble takes 1.925s between each throw and deals significantly less damage. Pilum would have slightly longer fire time than Heavy crossbow with this change which I believe is fine as you can still melee with the javelin while waiting for the cooldown. The lower reload time obviously makes it faster to grab a new javelin which means that it’s easier to parry after an unsuccessful throw. The stab damage is too high for the weapons atm, with the nerfs (which would make them deal the same amount as at release I believe) I think the stabs would be more balanced.

    And at last the sling:
    -Pebble

    • Velocity 4000/4500 -> 4000/4000
    • Min fire time 0.3 -> 0.4
    • Ammo count: Infinity -> 40

    -Lead

    • Velocity 5000/5500 -> 5000/5000
    • Min fire time 0.6 -> 0.65
    • Min damage 25 -> 30

    Not much to say about the slings atm other than that Lead minimum needs to deal as much damage as pebble minimum to even be viable seeing as full charge takes 2 seconds as well.

    Other stuff (including throwables)
    -General damage multipliers

    • Ranged leg damage 0.65 -> 0.4

    I know people want it nerfed even more, but I think we need to start somewhere and not overnerf it at once.
    -Throwing Axes

    • Throw cooldown: Nonexistant -> 2

    -Throwing knives

    • Throw cooldown: Nonexistant -> 1

    Same reasons as javelins really, they can be thrown too fast as of right now.
    -Smoke pots

    • Gravity 1 -> 0.7
    • Damage 0 -> 5
    • Ammo count 2 -> 3

    I’m not sure about the current duration time, but I’d increase it by 5 seconds at least either way. The damage increase is just so if someone actually gets hit with a smokepot they will take minor damage (not really needed though).I do have some ideas for firepots, but they’re really quite different so I won’t go over that int his topic at all.

    I think this would be a great start for Archerbalance and after theese changes there could be tweaks to both damage and the other values if needed, just nerfing damage will not get us anywhere. I have played archer ever since I started playing the game, I’m not one of the people who wants to make the class useless, I want to make it require more skill while still being a viable class.

    TL;DR - Projectile balance suggestions and shizzle.



  • It would be one hell of a changelog next patch to see all this implemented, I can’t see it happening as every time TB busts their asses making large patches like this, everyone goes “Nice job breaking the game RETARTS” or something along those lines. I also couldn’t see Archer mains being very happy about you taking away their snipers. As far as I’m concerned, though, these changes seem reasonable and fun to test out.



  • Archers are fine. Just another thing that people here love to complain about. But whenever I go in game, how often do I see archers dominating the scoreboard? Not often. Archers fill a valuable strategic role and should not be nerfed to the ground.



  • I really like those changes. Really detailed and thought through.

    I hope TBS will notice this thread and maybe implement those changes to the BETA version of Chiv so we can test it out.



  • The Javelins are currently the most op in the hand of good archers. The throw time is so short that if in a melee you take even one step back then the archer has enough time to 1hitkill you.
    The Javelins are also closecombat monsters they are like the old Broadsword with 0,45 stabwindup and 70 dmg.
    I have to facepalm everytime then i think that the broadsword got nerfed but this monster is broadsword+15dmg +killonsight
    If you only melee with the javelins then you are allready strong, but those insanly damaging throws alone are over the top.

    1. I would propose 20sec cooldown for the heavy javlin throw 15 for the medium and 10 for the smal. This cooldown only mean you cant throw them not that you cant fight. That way you are forced to engage in melee like after every shot.
    2. Archer cant hold loaded spears like the do now. After the throwWindup the Javelins are instantly thrown and the archer has to make sure that he is aiming at his opponent at that time. That will people the chance to time an evasiv move and hence will not make this as onesided as in the past. This change allows to consider the skill of the person being shot at.


  • @Xylvion:

    Now for the Javelins, which are really hard to balance as you have to be close to use them, but they’re really way too fast for the damage they deal and they got melee capabilities

    No, they have melee disabilities. The javs are absolutely the worst melee weapon in the game, i’d rather take flail any day of the week. The short range together with no riposte makes it so that you can easily just sidestep them, at worst you will get a hit trade (not really favorable for the archer) but mostly you 1 hit kill the archer.

    @Xylvion:

    Why a throw cooldown? Because it’s needed. Right now the time between each shortspear throw is 1.55 seconds sling with pebble takes 1.925s between each throw and deals significantly less damage. Pilum would have slightly longer fire time than Heavy crossbow with this change which I believe is fine as you can still melee with the javelin while waiting for the cooldown. The lower reload time obviously makes it faster to grab a new javelin which means that it’s easier to parry after an unsuccessful throw. The stab damage is too high for the weapons atm, with the nerfs (which would make them deal the same amount as at release I believe) I think the stabs would be more balanced.

    With this cooldown you propose javs would be utter shit there would be no reason whatsoever to choose javs over any of the other ranged weapons



  • There is a throw cool down for javelins its called reload time. If you hit them in that reload time they get flinch locked for 2 seconds. There shouldn’t be a bullshit extra cooldown. It would make it clunky and annoying. If anything increase reload times which would make it far less clunky. A time period where you dude can’t raise his arm is just stupid.

    You could do a more realistic change to crossbows. Crossbows had high projectile velocities than bows. But crossbows generally had almost half the range of bows. That’s because crossbow bolts decelerated way more than arrows. So instead of reducing the velocity you could just buff the deceleration.

    Murder the leg damage. Take it down to 0.25.

    Also there is no such thing as broadhead damage. Taking the whole warbow damage up to 100 won’t change anything except broadhead 1 shot archers. Same with taking it back up to 105. Don’t bring the leg damage HTK bullshit in considering we want to nerf the leg damage anyway.

    Bows currently have realistic reload times for an average archer. Though medieval longbowmen could get 20 shots off a minute rapid fire. And their longbows were warbow sized.

    Rather than more smoke how about making smoke useful. Make the crosshair disappear if you are standing in the radius of smoke. That would make smoke actually useful. Currently you have to be in the very centre of the smoke for it to blind you. Anywhere else and you can see right through it easily enough.

    A stamina drain drain for drawing bows should be implemented rather than fiddling with the reload times. Meaning if an archer who’s been firing a lot suddenly gets caught in melee they are at a disadvantage. Stamina drain down to 15 stamina. Why not 0? Well firstly I don’t want to constantly hear a whole bunch of archers huffing and puffing all damn game. Secondly it means an archer can get one parry off and still be able to take out complete idiots or noobs relatively easily.



  • @Jonasi
    Ofc javs are not good at melee, but compare it to using a bow in melee, you can’t really use a bow in melee now can you? The difference is being able to melee while having the fastest projectiles in game with really really high damage. With this cooldown Javs would not be utter shit but instead not as OP as they are right now.

    @Lemon
    Reload time is like a recovery, that’s the time after a throw when you cannot block/attack if that gets increased it’d cripple javs tremendously.

    They don’t really have a deceleration value, that’s why I think higher gravity so it drops faster is a better idea.

    As I said with leg damage idc if it’s 0.25 or 0.4 as long as it’s quite a lot lower than it is right now.

    You can set the damage of bodkin arrows and broadhead arrows individually hence broadhead damage = the damage the broadhead arrows has as a base.

    Not really because expert bowmen kept multiple arrows in their hand so they could keep firing simultaneously, but realism should not outweight gameplay.

    Yes ofc that’d be great, but that’s an extra feature, also as I said I’m not that certain about the smoke values myself but I still think a third smokepot would be a great addition.

    Stamina drain is an idea that might work for all I know, but it might also be an overnerf as archers stamina gets drained really quick in melee as it is atm.



  • All bows do the same damage the arrows are just different modifiers

    Archer still has to be fun to play. That javelin cooldown is just anti fun.



  • The javelins can be thrown a bit too quickly. If short spear (reload time) was nerfed to javelin speed, javelin to heavy javelin speed and the heavy javelin slowed down a bit too they wouldn’t be as spammy.



  • @lemonater47:

    All bows do the same damage the arrows are just different modifiers

    Archer still has to be fun to play. That javelin cooldown is just anti fun.

    ConfigProjectileBaseDamage[0]=(Damage=75,InitialSpeed=5000.0,MaxSpeed=5500.0,AmmoCount=25,InitialGravityScale=0.4,Drag=0.0000030,PitchCorrection=50)

    ConfigProjectileBaseDamage[1]=(Damage=83,InitialSpeed=5000.0,MaxSpeed=5500.0,AmmoCount=25,InitialGravityScale=0.4,Drag=0.0000030,PitchCorrection=0)

    The two rows for bodkin and broadhead longbow, they don’t deal the same damage as you can see.

    @Fang
    They’d still be faster than sling with that minor change.



  • @lemonater47:

    Also there is no such thing as broadhead damage.

    wrong. go look at the code.



  • @LongSun:

    wrong. go look at the code.

    I’ve been lied to my whole life.

    Why the fuck does TB have both damaged the same then?

    Makes no sense.



  • @lemonater47:

    I’ve been lied to my whole life.

    Why the fuck does TB have both damaged the same then?

    Makes no sense.

    That’s what they’ve done for warbow for no reason really. Longbow and shortbow got different values on both of their projectile types.



  • I would love to hear TBs logic and reasoning behind changes.

    But TB said they took the damage from 105 down to 90. Yet the spreadsheet said bodkins did 116 and broadheads 100 for warbow. And I was told beforehand that they were wrong and with those changes TB confirmed they were wrong.

    So is the spreadsheet right for the other bows?



  • that spreadsheet with those values is out of date.
    according to the patch archive thread, June 25th, 2013 - CU1 Patch 2 changed the warbow values to:

    Warbow Broadhead damage from 105 to 100
    Warbow Bodkin damage from 105 to 116

    not sure when it was reverted.



  • Jav melee would be shit if you couldn’t throw them lol. And it’s not like hit trading them is harmless to a knight or anything. They do plenty damage there and unless you have Messer and use slash the archer fucked up if he doesn’t flinch his 1htk attack, since all the others are slower or need a headshot.



  • @Lemon which spreadsheet are you looking at exactly? I know wolfy got one for CU1, but that’s like January 2013.

    @swagfox:

    Jav melee would be shit if you couldn’t throw them lol. And it’s not like hit trading them is harmless to a knight or anything. They do plenty damage there and unless you have Messer and use slash the archer fucked up if he doesn’t flinch his 1htk attack, since all the others are slower or need a headshot.

    Where have I said that you shouldn’t be able to throw them?



  • https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AkCaqK9JaJDIdEo3NDJKWkk5SVhRY2tEYjBLSk1xbWc&usp=drive_web

    That spreadsheet.

    Warbow damage was never 105 for either arrow according to that spreadsheet. Not since CU1. Yet patch notes said it was 105. It was either changed back to 105 at some point which would suggest the other bow damages are also wrong. Or TB are idiots and can’t remember their own stat values.



  • ^^ that spreadsheet had them both listed as 105 before it was updated, if I am not mistaken.


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