LongSword buff.

  • There is much heated debate about the longsword, and whether or not it needs a buff.

    After playing with it extensively I have come to the conclusion that it does need a buff, a very minor buff.

    Currently the stats against knight are

    Knight torso

    Slash: 30 dmg
    Overhead: 33 dmg
    stab: 31 dmg

    Getting a single OH and then two stabs, followed by a heavy kick is enough to kill a knight. I think this is a beautiful combination that shows the versatility and all around usefulness of the LongSword.

    However, the part that frustrates me and often gets me killed is when I land one of each attack, totalling to 94 damage, and then proceed to heavy kick for 5, totally 99 dmg. The opponent then has 1 health left.

    If we up the damage on the slash by 1 damage, it would make the sword much more consistent and make each of its attacks useful.
    As it stands there is really no reason to use a slash against a knight, but I think it should be a viable option to mix it into a combo, and it needs a 1 dmg buff for that.

    As a side effect, it would also allow a (((OH or Stab) and (slash)) and heavy kick) to kill a vanguard, but I see no reason why this is a bad thing. It is simply rewarding people properly for using diverse attacks against opponents, and making the LongSword into a more all around weapon. (which it should be)

    Sure you can say that slash shouldn’t do much damage against plate armor, but its a game, not real life, and balance/fun should be more important than realism.

  • LS needs a buff
    If use 1v1, it’s OK…
    When use is against more than 1 player, its like waving around a plastic batton, an they swing at you with a tree trunk

    I’d pay money to TBS for them to give it a slight buff

    For me, it needs a slight buff to slash & overhead

  • Its stab ripostes are pretty good. Hits before the bloody animation every time lol.

    But maybe buff its overhead damage instead of its slash. Don’t want to encourage more LMB mashing and it still solves your problem.

  • The longsword is fine as it is and doesn’t need any changes in my opinion. I was a little surprise by your slash damage suggestion but I don’t really fnd it necessary. 1 damage buff will not change anything really. if you change it from 75->78 you deal 98 damage to an archers head instead of 94 which makes a quick kick enough to finish them off. you also deal 2-4 more damage to MAA and vangaurds so really no big difference. The difference on knight is 1 more damage to the torso and one more damage to the head, I really don’t see how that’s required in any way as knights are supposed to be more resistant to cut weapons.
    The best way to buff LS is to bring messer slash damage down to 80 so that it can’t 3shot knights to the torso, but too many people would whine then and actully have to pick another weapon so I keep suggesting 85 damage instead :L

  • So messer can 2-3 HTK knights with amazing drags, 2 hit vanguards with 2 torso LMBs or overhead into stab combo on torso, one shot MaAs and archers with 1 LMB but you can’t buff the longsword? I just don’t understand how people can say the old longsword and SoW were so OP and don’t need reverting/buffing but are totally okay with the messer. The messer is just a better version of the old swords combined, and we certainly don’t need to nerf knights any more.

    Longsword is a garbage weapon especially in 1vs2+. Making it 3 shot knights with 3 overheads to torso and 2 shot vanguards with 2 overhead torso isn’t going to make it any better than the messer, it’s only going to make it less garbage and slightly more viable. Sure you can make it work in duels but you’d be better off with SoW or messer anyway, and it’s trash tier in pubs.

  • @SOC:

    So messer can 2-3 HTK knights with amazing drags

    I thought it couldn’t 2 shot anymore

  • First off messer can’t 2htk knights and that 2 damage buff to LS OH that almost everyone wants would make SOW even more useless. I’m a bit sceptical about it myself but whatever.

    So what I’ve changed in this spreadsheet is as you can see quite a lot, for example SoW is supposed to be faster than the LS, the windups however are really about the same so increasing the LS slash windup from 0.5->0.525 seems fair and obviously the messer from 0.525->0.55. Both the SoW stab and OH got slight damage buffs as you might see, the stab is now more effective against archers (2hit on legs) and you can actually kill vangaurds with the OH->stab combo or vice versa. not only that but 2 OHs to the legs will kill a MAA.
    As you can see with the messer quite alot is changed for example the slash is much more balanced this way and so is the stab, making the LS stab more useful than the messer stab. The messer is still stronger than the other weapons and more dragable, as you can see it requires 3 hits to kill knights like the other two swords, the difference is that 1OH and 2 slashes will do or 2OHs and one stab (To the torso obviously).
    messer also got the ability to 1hit MAAs to the head with 1 attack and 1hit archers with 2 attacks to the head. But as you can see the stab is weaker and 2 stabs won’t take out an MAA making the LS and SoW the better weapons for stabs, similar to how falchion/norse/BS works.

  • I believe that the LS is fine as it is for the time being in duels, however it is somewhat lacking in teamplay. Buffing anything of the LS’s to 3 shot a knight to the torso will make SOW inherently weaker, as now the effective HTK is the same for both weapons only the LS is longer and has a better switchup game. The LS and SOW have almost identical windups (the LS being .025 slower on the OH windup) and so there would be no reason to use the SOW. The problem with the current LS is that the potential 3 shot on knights and 2 shot on vanguards with a headshot is too inconsistent in teamfights, and puts the LS in a funny spot, because it’s incredibly hard to tell or calculate exactly how well the range and switchup game of the LS make up for the damage deficit. The turning point for me is that animation-wise, the LS is one of the most broken weapons in the entire game, so that (for me) makes the LS balanced in duels, although in teamplay broken animations don’t have as heavy an impact.

    If any sort of balance change to the LS WERE to actually go through, what has to happen is the LS needs a buff that allows it to 3 shot knights to the torso with one of its attacks (preferably the OH), while still requiring the 2 shot on vanguards to have one headshot, because otherwise the SOW will be rendered useless. However I doubt this will be able to work as everything works off of base damage. It’s possible to make it work by playing with the damage types, but that might end up throwing off HTKs on other classes. If that cannot work, than the SOW needs a buff in some way to keep its viability (perhaps speed?). However, then that might throw off balance across all classes because then the LS and SOW will outshine everything, which will require more reworking of other weapons/classes, which I believe is an entirely too convoluted and painstakingly slow process to be of any use, especially since there is already a new game in the works.
    Any sort of balance overhaul dealing with EVERY other weapon will bring about too many changes too quickly for there to be any benchmark off of which one can tell whether or not each balance change did what it was supposed to do (which has happened in the past).

    Any other option to buff the LS in teamplay will require massive reworkings of the game in order to balance everything perfectly, and I personally believe that it is much better to have a LS that is perhaps a little underpowered in teamplay than to have a long, drawn out balancing process in which some weapons or classes might become horribly overpowered/underpowered all for the sake of perfect balance (which, btw, is almost impossible), especially considering there is a new project on the way that would be much more deserving of TB’s attention. Of course even that is assuming they are working on something that is better than MW.

  • It wouldn’t really make SOW useless. SOW will still have its stab. Longsword has nothing currently. I see no reason to pick the longsword at all currently. Messer if I’m feeling like a caveman. SOW if I’m not.

  • @Stinker:

    Wall of text

    It’s flattering how you agree with both my LS and my SoW changes, I really appreciate that!
    Anyhow the messer right now is way way way stronger than the other bastard swords. As SOC mentioned 2 lmbs to the torso kills a vanguard, not only that but so does 2 overheads. The possibilities to 2hit a vanguard are far easier with a messer than with either LS or SoW (The VG killer). Not only that but the OH and slash deals the same damage which I myself find silly. Perhaps the changes with the different timers wouldn’t be needed for the messer, but I definetly think the damage changes are necessary.

  • LS animations (much stab feint and reverses) and windup times make it incredibly easy to hit with, the only thing keeping it from being too good is the damage. Buff the overhead/slash damage but increase windup on overhead and universally nerf sword stab feints and I think it would be a much better weapon. Messer should still be worth using if Longsword gets a more reliable 3htk and still has range and speed advantage.

  • The messer and maul are the only weapons that make knights viable. Any nerfs to them would make knights redundant, as vanguards would always be a better choice.
    I say buff the longsword to the messer’s level, for the sake of variety.

  • @MissingNo:

    The messer and maul are the only weapons that make knights viable. Any nerfs to them would make knights redundant, as vanguards would always be a better choice.
    I say buff the longsword to the messer’s level, for the sake of variety.

    Are you fucked in the head? You must be to say that Flail isn’t a viable weapon. Pffft!

  • As a guy that mainly uses longsword, pls don’t touch it.

    Thank you TB

  • Okay I was not expecting so many people to comment. First off, thanks for your replies, some thought out and some not, but this post is to discuss my suggestion of increasing the slash by 1 damage.

    Thank you xylvion for pointing out that it would also leave archers viable to a head slash + lightkick, i missed that.

    I am not here to discuss the OH 3htk ability or anything of the sort, quite the opposite.

    I like that the longsword is not 3htk on knight without a headshot, I just think it needs a buff to its slash to warrant its lack of 3htk ability.
    I want this change so when you miss your headshot (and your 3htk) you still have the option to do a heavy kick and finish him off (as long as you land 1 OH).

    Also, I realize that longsword is very difficult in a 1v2 scenario, but I think that is more a testament to how cheap gib tactics like maul ripostes are lame and easy rather than how LS is weak. LS should be an all around support weapon that can fit into any scenario, and with a 1dmg slash buff, I think it can fill that role more consistently.

    Also, omg87, why don’t you want it to be buffed at all? it clearly is the worst of the swords.

    and stinker, how do you mean LS has some of the worst animations in the game? I would say almost the exact opposite, except for the stab, but every weapon has shit stab animations. Also, i want to discuss my change, not near impossible damage type changes.

  • If you ever thought old Messer was too instant or spinny, just imagine that except even faster. Then you got the Longsword. Only reason people don’t cry about Longsword’s insta overhead/stab ripostes is because it kills you so slowly, lol.

  • I would use the longsword only for the extra range and drags over the SoW, and the range over the messer. You can tell the difference greatly if you go against maa being able to close the dodge distance more effectively, even vanguards and knights with shorter weapons. In comp play it can still be used effectively but you REALLY have to play a lot better than anyone using SoW or messer, and the at least 1 maul that a lot of comp teams run just to be a 1 hitter quitter spinning nightmare of death. I find myself WANTING to use the longsword more in comp, but the fact that 2 out of 4 classes have the potential of requiring 1 more hit to kill EACH is quite dissatisfying. You would think that hitting the head should not be difficult, but skilled players will either force you to hit other parts of the body that’s NOT their head, or parry anything that would hit the head. More times than not it DOES take 4 htk knights and 3 htk vanguards, same goes with pubs so it doesn’t make sense a lot of the time to pick longsword when the other two swords have either the vast damage potential or the speed to compensate.

    to this day though, the longsword remains to be one of the most balanced weapons, and the animations are still nowhere near as shitty and unreadable as half the other weapons in chivalry medieval warfare. It should be the basis on how other weapons are balanced and animated, always has been that way since day 1. Old longsword was so good though I miss it, 2 hitting vanguards was never an issue to me although a lot of people seemed to think it was imbalanced for some reason.

  • 2 hitting vans with the old longsword was nowhere near as easy as it was to 2 hit with SoW stabs and the SoW is still basically a vanguard hard counter after all the feint changes

  • @zombojoe:

    2 hitting vans with the old longsword was nowhere near as easy as it was to 2 hit with SoW stabs and the SoW is still basically a vanguard hard counter after all the feint changes

    As it should be.

    I honestly wouldn’t mind the LS getting a teeny tiny buff, even though I personally feel it’s better than the SoW at the moment. If anything, every classes resistance values needs to be redone so that damage changes aimed to affect one class won’t have a downstream affect on the others, bu that’s probably too much work.

  • i use the LS every day, doesnt need a buff, learn to get head shots /thread

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