Handlehits and non-sword knight primaries



  • I’ve been playing with the grand mace, poleaxe, warhammer, and bearded axe a lot recently and there’s a small delay between my windup ending and my weapon actually being able to do damage which feels extremely clunky and restrictive, especially combined with the bubble, and large amounts of knockback. It also causes me to unnecessarily hit trade.

    There’s little point to using any weapons besides SoW/Messer/maul(still affected by the handlehit nerf, I know, but it’s still powerful due to hit trades) right now, and I think that reverting the handlehit nerf would help their viability a lot. Would the community be against the handlehit nerf getting reverted?



  • Halberd suffers even more because you’re a VG, you can trade 100% against a halberd overhead because it takes way too long to hit the target, it’s bullshit.

    That said, i still prefer this version of the game. Handle hits caused really bad desyncs. Everything would be fine if it wasn’t for the 2h sword animations being significantly stronger than the rest of the animations.



  • Handle hits realy only needed to vanish from long release weapons lets say greater than 0,5sec releasetime.
    That way you have got more of a chance to differentiate delays and instant hits. With handle hits people tried to delay and still hit you in the first frame of release (remember the old polehammer that somehow hits you with that shitty bottom end).

    On the other side weapons like the flail didnt need to have thier handle hits removed. The Flail is the best example of this going wrong, because there is no one that can hit anything with it in its current state. You dont get hit by handlehits of these weapons because they are so fast that you can block before they gon into release hence countering handlehit



  • I’d like if they could give more of the handle back to the axe weapons.



  • the sword weapons did not lose their handlehit, at least as far as i’m concerned… just have to accomodate for whatever part of the tracer is missing now. I get insta overhead ripostes all the time with sow and longsword at least, not so much messer. The other issue is that hit trades often cancel your attack or throw your tracers in the trash. All the weapons that are not swords are still viable because apparently recovery time doesn’t exist any more so hit trading is the most viable tactic. Mauls can apparently recover from missing and hitting the ground faster than a longsword… it never ends with this shit, oh and try and hit any weapon’s lmb attack first… watch them trade you with slash all day. Lmb still best attack.



  • @50ShadesofClay:

    the sword weapons did not lose their handlehit, at least as far as i’m concerned… just have to accomodate for whatever part of the tracer is missing now. I get insta overhead ripostes all the time with sow and longsword at least

    That’s caused by how the riposte mechanic is implemented and probably something to do with a minor desync.
    It’s not really a handlehit but rather a very very short windup.

    For example, the windup of the Longsword stab, from idle, is 0.6s. If your riposte is quick enough* you can sometimes riposte stab with a windup as short as 0.1-0.2s.

    Sometimes the riposte will fully skip the windup animation and you go straight into release. This is most noticeable with the poleaxe, but the maul, spears, all weapons really, can take advantage of this.
    I only noticed how the windup would be ‘randomly’ skipped when looking at some footage in search of subtle speed hackers. It wasn’t speed hacking, just Chiv being Chiv.

    • I think the elevation of your crosshair/arms also plays a role in how short the windup can be in a riposte


  • I’m relatively happy with how the weapons are as is, I feel like there are enough viable choices if you use them well and even some of the less viable weapons are fun to use and provide an extra challenge in situation were you know you out match your opponent. With that said I wouldn’t mind seeing a few more knight weapons being a little more viable in competitive situations but I don’t think handle hits are the answer.

    Wasn’t the main reason we wanted a Messer nerf was to avoid having a 2 hit weapon hit so fast? Adding handle hits to weapons like Poleaxe and Grand Mace would just end up making them OP, they’re already decent choices that are just overshadowed by a stupid weapon like the Maul. If anything they’d be better served with a tad extra range and maybe some changes that make them feel a little smoother to control like the swords do.

    As far as the Vanguard weapons like Halberd and Polehammer I don’t think they need a buff at all and the last thing I’d want is for them to get handle hits back. Polehammer is a knight killer and Halberd is a good all around weapon in my opinion, great range combined with the high damage, knockback, stamina drain and ability to drag and reverse make them perfectly fine as is.



  • you can basically avoid any enemy attack by being at facehug range and crouching while looking up while turning your back to the enemy, most weapons will just go through you then.



  • @Xylvion:

    you can basically avoid any enemy attack by being at facehug range and crouching while looking up while turning your back to the enemy, most weapons will just go through you then.

    Hmm, that’s interesting. Do you mean that by simply doing that ALL attacks will miraculously phase through you? I’m not sure it’s as easy as you make it sound. I crouch a lot and people know me for that so they’re always dragging their stabs and slashes downwards to hit me. But at facehug range, those attacks usually come from too high a position and they never manage to drag downwards quickly enough, so they miss and I live.

    I’ve also managed to avoid plenty overheads (also at facehug) by sidestepping slightly in the opposite direction (basic footwork, if it looks like a regular OH, I would sidestep to the left of the enemy) and rotating at the same time, usually while looking up. On my end it doesn’t look like their weapons went through me, but rather that the blade barely missed me a la matrix style.



  • @Xylvion:

    you can basically avoid any enemy attack by being at facehug range and crouching while looking up while turning your back to the enemy, most weapons will just go through you then.

    impossibru to hit someone with warhammer when this happens



  • @Dire:

    If anything they’d be better served with a tad extra range and maybe some changes that make them feel a little smoother to control like the swords do.

    THIS. I so want this for my beloved bearded. It is just too easy for a vanguard to avoid its swings due to its length and drag restriction. I don’t even attempt to overhead outside of a combo as I have learned how easy it is to miss with it. Short windup and short release with the same movement restriction as a maul, but without the damage, is just ridiculous. It already suffers from short length and lack of versatility. Why cripple its drag potential so much? The only thing its got going for it, is a quick lmb riposte and an axe animation stab that does warhammer stab damage. I still think its a fun weapon, but it feels like I’m on hard mode, whereas a sword is much easier to kill with.



  • I don’t know if any of you played wolfys balance mod back when it worked, but he made the bearded axe really really awesome, I absolutely loved his changes to it.

    @wildwulfy:

    Bearded Axe Slash Combo 0.75>0.7
    Bearded Axe Slash Release 0.45>0.475
    Bearded Axe Slash Recovery 0.7>0.6
    Bearded Axe Overhead Combo 0.75>0.7
    Bearded Axe Overhead Release 0.5>0.575
    Bearded Axe Overhead Recovery 0.7>0.6
    Bearded Axe Stab Windup 0.55>0.5
    Bearded Axe Stab Combo 0.65>0.625
    Bearded Axe Stab Release 0.4>0.35
    Bearded Axe Stab Recovery 0.7>0.6
    Bearded Axe horizontal rotation speed 45000>55000
    Bearded Axe Vertical rotation speed 45000>60000
    Bearded Axe Scale 1.1>1.3



  • @Xylvion:

    I don’t know if any of you played wolfys balance mod back when it worked, but he made the bearded axe really really awesome, I absolutely loved his changes to it.

    Wow, those changes look great. Too bad TBS hates changing large parts of a weapon’s stats in a single patch. Hopefully they’ll at least consider some of the ideas in this thread, being railroaded into choosing swords is really boring.



  • @Xanith:

    Wow, those changes look great. Too bad TBS hates changing large parts of a weapon’s stats in a single patch. Hopefully they’ll at least consider some of the ideas in this thread, being railroaded into choosing swords is really boring.

    The grandmace is amazing though, land 1 hit and the opponent is dead, the b0ckswing hits 95% of the time because it’s fast enough so the flinch is barely canceled for your opponent if you do it. you can do the same with dubaxe, but unlike grandmace the b0ckswings are harder to hit because of the length.



  • I would like to see the Bearded axe get LS-like draggability with more power and fast combos, since the stab is really weak. It would be faster and a bit more draggable than the Poleaxe, just enough to make it a viable choice for chopping up VGs and Knights without having to rely on stab-ripostes and feints.



  • @Alphonse:

    That’s caused by how the riposte mechanic is implemented and probably something to do with a minor desync.
    It’s not really a handlehit but rather a very very short windup.

    For example, the windup of the Longsword stab, from idle, is 0.6s. If your riposte is quick enough* you can sometimes riposte stab with a windup as short as 0.1-0.2s.

    Sometimes the riposte will fully skip the windup animation and you go straight into release. This is most noticeable with the poleaxe, but the maul, spears, all weapons really, can take advantage of this.
    I only noticed how the windup would be ‘randomly’ skipped when looking at some footage in search of subtle speed hackers. It wasn’t speed hacking, just Chiv being Chiv.

    • I think the elevation of your crosshair/arms also plays a role in how short the windup can be in a riposte

    Are you saying that desync/some network problem is causing the riposte to hit you earlier than the windup of an ordinary attack would allow? Because I’m pretty sure that longsword riposte stabs are not even close to as fast as 0.1 or 0.2 in the “windup”. If anything they are the same as the regular attack but with a different animation (sometimes the weapon will stay in one position where it is pointed to where you are aiming for the duration of the windup).
    Norse sword is, of course, faster than the longsword and its riposte overhead at close range is extremely quick, but there’s no way it, too, is near .1 or .2. If it were, most people wouldn’t be able to even see it and parry it before they get hit not even including latency.



  • @Coaster_Man:

    Are you saying that desync/some network problem is causing the riposte to hit you earlier than the windup of an ordinary attack would allow?

    Hmm, no. I’ve seen a Messer riposte that due to a) game mechanics b) body manipulation, had literally no windup animation. Fortunately had “showdebug” enabled while specting this guy, whose animations were parry -> release, instead of parry -> windup -> release.
    You can check the vid here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/dx9teyofj255c98/shortwindup.rar
    (it’s 5 MB and no Youtube so it doesn’t fuck up readability, plus I’m too lazy to actually edit and do slow mo)

    Pay attention to the animation name line at 0:02-0:03. From the moment the shiny Knight parries to the moment the server registers a “release”, a full 250 milliseconds took place. Even if it’s not really a windup animation, the whole “windup” part of the sequence is pretty short, wouldn’t you say?
    That’s just an extreme case*. What I’ve noticed is that you can consistently shorten the “windup” of any attack/weapon with ripostes, and sometimes it’s like super fast. It’s nowhere near the windup of a regular attack, and that’s to be expected because ripostes should be quick counter attacks. But sometimes it like really really fast. What if that guy was facing backwards, did a butt parry and dragged a really fast riposte? Very little chance in reading that. Even worse considering that the attacked does not grunt or make any noise in fast ripostes.

    I’ve also watched other guys using maul and their windups were shorter than the spreadsheet values. I’m talking about a 0.3-0.4s windup of a maul OH. And it even happens with myself on 1PP, where I sometimes do parry > release and sometimes parry > windup > release. I’m playing Messer and after I parry some LS attack, I riposte into an OH that goes into release in less than 300 milliseconds, which I’d call a pretty fast “windup”. And I even dragged it a little because I had to correct my aim, so it could’ve been even faster.

    Try it yourself and you will notice that the faster your reaction and how well you are positioned when you riposte, it will feel like your attacks have shorter windups. Try it with stabs and overheads and drag them as little as possible so that they connect really fast. Look really high up and do a riposte. Then do it looking at the middle, then looking down. You will notice that after your parry connects, the riposte will have different speeds, most noticeable in its windups.

    • I mentioned a desync because that could explain why a really fast riposte could have a windup so short that the server might not register the windup. But it happens too consistently on other videos too, so I’m guessing it’s just some hidden mechanic-

    I wished Campeoes Immundo was still around. He’s the guy that discovered why FiR existed in the first place by looking at the game’s code.



  • @Xylvion:

    I don’t know if any of you played wolfys balance mod back when it worked, but he made the bearded axe really really awesome, I absolutely loved his changes to it.

    This isn’t on the workshop is it?



  • @Alphonse:

    Hmm, no. I’ve seen a Messer riposte that due to a) game mechanics b) body manipulation, had literally no windup animation. Fortunately had “showdebug” enabled while specting this guy, whose animations were parry -> release, instead of parry -> windup -> release.
    You can check the vid here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/dx9teyofj255c98/shortwindup.rar
    (it’s 5 MB and no Youtube so it doesn’t fuck up readability, plus I’m too lazy to actually edit and do slow mo)

    Pay attention to the animation name line at 0:02-0:03. From the moment the shiny Knight parries to the moment the server registers a “release”, a full 250 milliseconds took place. Even if it’s not really a windup animation, the whole “windup” part of the sequence is pretty short, wouldn’t you say?
    That’s just an extreme case*. What I’ve noticed is that you can consistently shorten the “windup” of any attack/weapon with ripostes, and sometimes it’s like super fast. It’s nowhere near the windup of a regular attack, and that’s to be expected because ripostes should be quick counter attacks. But sometimes it like really really fast. What if that guy was facing backwards, did a butt parry and dragged a really fast riposte? Very little chance in reading that. Even worse considering that the attacked does not grunt or make any noise in fast ripostes.

    I’ve also watched other guys using maul and their windups were shorter than the spreadsheet values. I’m talking about a 0.3-0.4s windup of a maul OH. And it even happens with myself on 1PP, where I sometimes do parry > release and sometimes parry > windup > release. I’m playing Messer and after I parry some LS attack, I riposte into an OH that goes into release in less than 300 milliseconds, which I’d call a pretty fast “windup”. And I even dragged it a little because I had to correct my aim, so it could’ve been even faster.

    Try it yourself and you will notice that the faster your reaction and how well you are positioned when you riposte, it will feel like your attacks have shorter windups. Try it with stabs and overheads and drag them as little as possible so that they connect really fast. Look really high up and do a riposte. Then do it looking at the middle, then looking down. You will notice that after your parry connects, the riposte will have different speeds, most noticeable in its windups.

    • I mentioned a desync because that could explain why a really fast riposte could have a windup so short that the server might not register the windup. But it happens too consistently on other videos too, so I’m guessing it’s just some hidden mechanic-

    I wished Campeoes Immundo was still around. He’s the guy that discovered why FiR existed in the first place by looking at the game’s code.

    I think everyone has noticed that sometimes ripostes come at lightningspeed.
    You can clearly see this then fighting ripostespamming SwordofWar then suddenly one out of 4 ripostes has different animation and comes at twice the speed.
    But while you think that someone has to start an attack as soon as possible after a block, i think that you got to start an attack at the absolut end of the ripostewindow. This is guesswork but i think that a riposte release happens at a defined/certain time after block so by giving an attack order late there might be less windup



  • @Alphonse:

    Hmm, no. I’ve seen a Messer riposte that due to a) game mechanics b) body manipulation, had literally no windup animation. Fortunately had “showdebug” enabled while specting this guy, whose animations were parry -> release, instead of parry -> windup -> release.
    You can check the vid here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/dx9teyofj255c98/shortwindup.rar
    (it’s 5 MB and no Youtube so it doesn’t fuck up readability, plus I’m too lazy to actually edit and do slow mo)

    Pay attention to the animation name line at 0:02-0:03. From the moment the shiny Knight parries to the moment the server registers a “release”, a full 250 milliseconds took place. Even if it’s not really a windup animation, the whole “windup” part of the sequence is pretty short, wouldn’t you say?
    That’s just an extreme case*. What I’ve noticed is that you can consistently shorten the “windup” of any attack/weapon with ripostes, and sometimes it’s like super fast. It’s nowhere near the windup of a regular attack, and that’s to be expected because ripostes should be quick counter attacks. But sometimes it like really really fast. What if that guy was facing backwards, did a butt parry and dragged a really fast riposte? Very little chance in reading that. Even worse considering that the attacked does not grunt or make any noise in fast ripostes.

    I’ve also watched other guys using maul and their windups were shorter than the spreadsheet values. I’m talking about a 0.3-0.4s windup of a maul OH. And it even happens with myself on 1PP, where I sometimes do parry > release and sometimes parry > windup > release. I’m playing Messer and after I parry some LS attack, I riposte into an OH that goes into release in less than 300 milliseconds, which I’d call a pretty fast “windup”. And I even dragged it a little because I had to correct my aim, so it could’ve been even faster.

    Try it yourself and you will notice that the faster your reaction and how well you are positioned when you riposte, it will feel like your attacks have shorter windups. Try it with stabs and overheads and drag them as little as possible so that they connect really fast. Look really high up and do a riposte. Then do it looking at the middle, then looking down. You will notice that after your parry connects, the riposte will have different speeds, most noticeable in its windups.

    • I mentioned a desync because that could explain why a really fast riposte could have a windup so short that the server might not register the windup. But it happens too consistently on other videos too, so I’m guessing it’s just some hidden mechanic-

    I wished Campeoes Immundo was still around. He’s the guy that discovered why FiR existed in the first place by looking at the game’s code.

    Shit, I notice this but I thought I was going crazy or was way to high. I have no idea how to control the riposte windup timing, but I never really thought about this. New shit for me.

    Its Camponês Imundo (Filthy Peasant), I also haven’t seen him in Coldfire in a while…