A good example why you can't balance only around numbers



  • For all the theorycrafting masters, here we go:

    Active Parry window is 500 ms

    Parry recovery is 500 ms

    A SoW stab windup is 600ms

    The feint to attack delay is 400ms for stabs

    I know that you cannot feint at 600ms in windup anymore, but it does not matter for this one ;)

    –------------------------------------------------------

    Example 1:

    Player A stabfeints Player B

    Player A feints at 0.6 windup. Player B parries at the same time.

    Player A does a followup stab.

    Player B double parries the followup stab.

    Example 2:

    Player A stabfeints Player B

    Player A feints at 0.1 windup. Player B parries at the same time.

    Player A does a followup stab.

    Player B double parries the followup stab.


    **Now, this is just a theoretical example. Explain why ingame, feinting later in windup makes you more prone to getting double parried then feinting earlier in windup.

    **When you solve this I shall grant you the Diploma in Chivalry Science

    While I agree that one half of balancing this game is numbers, this is just an example that we shouldnt forget the other half: practical experience and knowledge

    “ℬ | Ɲohb’dy: this is a very good point, you’ve persuaded me”



  • yeah numbers really mean shit to me. animations and acceleration and turning throws a lot of numbers out the window. oh and backswings of course. with so much hit trading as well, in those situations even damage would mean more than speed.



  • The feint attack to delay is 200ms for every 2h and 300ms for every 1h. (If I’m wrong about this I’d love to see where the stab feint delay is located as I thought the weapon itself only had one value)
    There’s something called latency.
    There’s the human factor.
    The reason why late feints are more likely to get “double parried” is because the opponent started parrying at the same time as he would when you use a “quick feint”, meaning you’re in your windup for a longer amount of time than you have to be.
    I think that the current feints would be rendered useless in a LAN enviorment because of what you just mentioned, the numbers that are basically theorycrafting.



  • u can read any feint in a LAN environment consistently

    i played against a bunch of scrubs that were feinting me with norse sword at facehug range with as MAAs and i could read em every time



  • Latency really is the #01 killer of this game. It throws out any consistent rules and makes everything a clusterfuck.



  • I think joining a 64 slot server would solve this riddle rather quickly.

    *Inconsistency
    *Lag
    *General choppy/delayed animations



  • you are forgetting the example of:

    Player A stab feints at .6
    Player B parries at .1

    and:

    Player A stab feints at .1
    Player B parries at .6



  • Well the initial problem is that the return to idle followed by windup 2 is the same as active parry followed by parry recovery:
    400+600=1000 (Player A)
    500+500=1000 (Player B)
    This is true regardless of the scenario because these timings don’t have to do with where in the windup the attack is cancelled. However, this is only true if Player B parries at the exact moment the Player A cancels the attack.

    It’s possible that there are times when player B parries, say 200ms into windup, where player A still feints 600ms into windup.If player B parries exactly when the feint goes out (at both .1 and .6) then everything that follows will theoretically be the same, as the timings will coincide. Its possible for player B to think there is an attack coming and parry in response at any point in the windup, not just the exact moment in which the feint occurs, whereas player A will almost never be able to cut his feint shorter due to human reaction time, so most likely he will still feint as far into the windup as he can, resulting in a 400ms difference (if we go by my example above) that gives player B a better chance at double parrying.

    400+600+400=1400
    500+500=1000

    In the case of flash feints (say 100ms), there are times when player B parries after the feint is performed (say 400ms after). This scenario is almost never seen in the case of the 600ms feint, because player B would most likely get hit anyways if he were to try and parry after (regardless of the 200ms lockout because human reaction time is ~200ms) and be in flinch. This scenario, only seen in the case of flash feints, allows player A to better time his second windup.

    400+600-400=600
    500+500=1000

    There’s also always the consideration of distance the tracer travels, latency, torso movement, etc, but these are things that affect both feinting scenarios.



  • Totally agree, with latency taking into account, and the fact that you can mutilate animations, numbers don’t mean anything.
    And fun fact, twice yesterday, there was 5 or 6 people on two different servers with 100+ ping, I told them it was pretty annoying, they laughed at me and said that “anything under 200 is okay”, and that “not everyone can afford fiber”. Y U SO DUMB PEOPLE?



  • @zombojoe:

    u can read any feint in a LAN environment consistently

    i played against a bunch of scrubs that were feinting me with norse sword at facehug range with as MAAs and i could read em every time

    Yes, that’s partially why EU players are better feint readers. Consistently low latency helps a great deal. NA players, largely compensate by gambling. This being said, every player falls for feints, no matter who they are; the trick is to just fall for fewer. I think the best feint reader in the game is Ninja Pigs (aka Wizardish). He reads like 80% of SoW stab feints, blows me away every time I see it. He also plays with decent latency and @ 120fps which helps.

    I’ve also heard the same thing from people who’ve played @ LAN, that it’s almost easy to read feints



  • @parkrangerstan:

    Yes, that’s partially why EU players are better feint readers. Consistently low latency helps a great deal. NA players, largely compensate by gambling. This being said, every player falls for feints, no matter who they are; the trick is to just fall for fewer. I think the best feint reader in the game is Ninja Pigs (aka Wizardish). He reads like 80% of SoW stab feints, blows me away every time I see it. He also plays with decent latency and @ 120fps which helps.

    I’ve also heard the same thing from people who’ve played @ LAN, that it’s almost easy to read feints

    Me and Palaceer occasionally duel on Official Duel Server #09 West where we both get ~30 ping. Meanwhile, we get anywhere from 70-100 ping in scrims typically. It’s already a world of difference in parries registering and reading feints. Dueling is actually quite fun at that environment, can’t imagine what it’s like for 10 ping.

    It’s really no coincidence that NA’s best feint readers are all on the East Coast where a majority of NA scrims and tournaments are held… Everyone else is forced to gamble or call rather than play reactively and, when I scrim 100 ping in Simrai Chicago, I can see why Aussies banned feints for a while lol. Good thing I can play something like Vanguard and crutch on reach and knockback or Man-at-Arms where I have something even better than parries for those moments where I’m not sure if they’ll feint or not.

    Even if feints were super oober easy to read, place them in a team fight scenario and even the quickest of flash feints would test your mettle.



  • @a:

    Me and Palaceer occasionally duel on Official Duel Server #09 West where we both get ~30 ping. Meanwhile, we get anywhere from 70-100 ping in scrims typically. It’s already a world of difference in parries registering and reading feints. Dueling is actually quite fun at that environment, can’t imagine what it’s like for 10 ping.

    It’s really no coincidence that NA’s best feint readers are all on the East Coast where a majority of NA scrims and tournaments are held… Everyone else is forced to gamble or call rather than play reactively and, when I scrim 100 ping in Simrai Chicago, I can see why Aussies banned feints for a while lol. Good thing I can play something like Vanguard and crutch on reach and knockback or Man-at-Arms where I have something even better than parries for those moments where I’m not sure if they’ll feint or not.

    Even if feints were super oober easy to read, place them in a team fight scenario and even the quickest of flash feints would test your mettle.

    I know how that feels. I get 110-116 ping in Chicago when there’s 12 people on the server (i.e, your basic 6v6). It makes a HUGE difference. That’s why I have no sympathy for people who complain about 60-70 ping, even though 60-70 isn’t ideal, I love seeing my ping in that range now, lol.



  • All these numbers and shit lol. You’re not scientists, stop trying to look smart. We already know that the main villain behind everything is latency.



  • Its not latency in this case tho, it is but only a small amount.


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