Class balance vs Player skill



  • This is a big topic, and far too often overlooked by people.

    In general, I feel the balance of the game is in a very good state. Sure, there are a few tweaks I would like to see here or there, but overall its good. I know a lot of people would read to this point and think “but ____ is OP!”

    What people are really complaining about is the skill of the player, and not so much the class balance. I could go on for some time about the balance of the classes, how archers aren’t that strong on paper (save for javs), how maa can get 1 shot by knights while needing to land 3-5 hits to win, but what I wanted to bring to attention was player skill, and how people tend to blame the class instead of compliment the opponents skills.

    When I started playing Maa I remember saying “how can anyone be good at this class?” because I was horrible, but I kept at it. Eventually, I got really damn good at killing people. Running into a group of 3 knights and winning, even though 1-2 hits would kill me, where as for the group of them I had to land 11 hits total. I know I’ve been the reason someone has typed “maa is broken/op” but I’m also aware that its because I’ve put in the time and practice to get that good with them. Oddly enough, I don’t recall seeing a “vanguard is OP” when I’ve lead a map cycle being 34/11/18 and had the top score.

    My skill as an archer isn’t as high however, and I still struggle to land shots, and even when I do they often don’t kill. I’ve had some good hot streaks so far where I kill every other shot and land 70% or more of my shots, but its not a constant thing, and even when I get on that streak, there are still VG’s or Maa’s with better scores. I can tell archers can be amazing, I’ve seen a few 50’s rankers lead servers with them, but that doesn’t make the class “OP” yet still people say it while playing. Its the class I’ve seen most being called OP. I think this is because the skill isn’t observed as well by the people the archer kills. All you see is an archer shooting you, not the angle or lead they had to do to make sure the arrow hits. They could even simply had a lucky shot and hit. Same is true in melee though. The difference is your actively engaging in melee while only passively involved with getting shot at. This makes it feel like its more the class than the player, because that class has ranged attacks.

    IMO the Knight would be the most OP of the classes, but it’s not like this massive unbalanced thing that must be fixed. When I say OP, what I really mean is “has a minor advantage on occasion only when used by a highly skilled player.” Yes, it can be frustrating to fight a rank 40+ knight as an maa, because I can get 1 shot by them while I have to out skill them and land 3-4 hits, but when I think about it that really comes down to skill vs skill, not class vs class. The maa is meant to land multiple fast hits while weaving around. The knight is meant to take lots of hits and use stronger, slower weapons. The ratio there sounds about right. Add in skill difference and there ya go. A skilled knight against an unskilled maa seems unfair to the maa, and vice versa. Its really just a matter of skill.

    Sorry it turned into a bit of a rant, but I’m need writing an English paper. Thanks for reading!

    tl;dr - When you see an archer or maa or whatever tearing through people and racking up kills, it’s because the player is SKILLED and not that the class is OP. That or speed hacks…



  • I play Archer rather frequently and it’s the easiest class in game. The opposing team has 2 really really good people that can take out 6-10 people on your team, no problem. All you have to do is land one hit on either one of them and they’re almost dead, they can’t avoid you, they can’t see your arrows as they’re different for the person shooting them and the rest of the server, they can’t defend against you in any way. It doesn’t matter what rank the player being shot is, he can be rank 2 or rank 54, but if he instead got attacked in melee he would surely be a lot easier to hit if he were rank 2 than rank 54.



  • big skill when i can go 20/1 as a really mediocre archer on top knights EU



  • I’ve thought about this topic quite a lot and I agree. Much like when I see a skilled longsword or bearded axe player that dominates when going up against more commonly used meta weapons.



  • I agree.

    /10chars



  • M8 I’ve been spending at least half of my 1741 hours with the Double Axe and I can just as easily pick Messer, Heavy Crossbow, MAA+Norse Sword and achieve the same success with barely any prior experience in those weapon trees.

    Your theory sounded positive and it was a fun read but it hardly applies to the majority of Chivalry’s balance. /thread



  • @Rickvs:

    M8 I’ve been spending… 1741 hours with the Double Axe…

    So you’re saying you’ve spent a lot of time in the game?

    @Rickvs:

    and I can just as easily pick Messer, Heavy Crossbow, MAA+Norse Sword and achieve the same success with barely any prior experience in those weapon trees.

    And because of all that time you’re better at the game? Wow, sounds like what this guy was saying.



  • @Oy:

    So you’re saying you’ve spent a lot of time in the game?
    And because of all that time you’re better at the game? Wow, sounds like what this guy was saying.

    What I said was a reference to the game’s class and weapon balance.

    1000+ hours with 1 underpowered weapon == 10 hours with 1 balanced weapon
    in terms of success gained. That’s more or less what I said.

    This topic claims that apart from a few minor tweaks weapons such as Bearded Axe, Double Axe and Flail are on par with the rest, it’s just that the community over-complains and those weapons aren’t underpowered at all.



  • The reality is it doesnt matter how good you are, you can use some weapons and as above average player I can pick you off given my weapon of choice.

    Spook or Crushed wouldnt stand a chance against me if they are using a flail. If they used any sword, maul etc. they would destroy me.



  • @Rickvs:

    This topic claims that apart from a few minor tweaks weapons such as Bearded Axe, Double Axe and Flail are on par with the rest, it’s just that the community over-complains and those weapons aren’t underpowered at all.

    You can’t put dubaxe with bearded and flail mang.



  • dubaxe is good but maul is better

    they both do the exact same thing



  • You make a good point, but Archer being OP is common knowledge at this point. Shooting mechanics are not being limited by stamina, no accuracy penalty, absurd projectile speed / range / damage, too much ammo. To top it off, their melee is strong. Shortsword, thrusting dagger are unpredictable, really hard to deal with.

    The only counter to an archer is an archer.



  • @ashvins:

    The only counter to an archer is an archer.

    Or a Tower Shield.

    Pffft, ok ok sorry. I couldn’t type that with a serious face.



  • No sense in trying to compare archers to melee. Just accept the 1 archer per team meta. For a team to really excel, the melee and the archer both need to be good.



  • Spook or Crushed wouldnt stand a chance against me if they are using a flail.

    Is that a challenge?



  • @Kim:

    Is that a challenge?

    Sure I will take that, best of 7



  • Archer isn’t op because it’s too powerful per say, it’s op because unlike in melee-melee matchups, the outcome of the fight is not a function of both player’s skill. Ideally in a melee-melee matchup whether you land a hit or not is determined by your offensive skills, the opponents defensive skills, loadout and luck. In a melee-archer matchup, your defensive skills are taken out of the equation. And if you tell me to evade the practically hitscan arrows I will DDoS you.



  • the arrows are not practically hitscan

    pls



  • @Stael:

    Archer isn’t op because it’s too powerful per say, it’s op because unlike in melee-melee matchups, the outcome of the fight is not a function of both player’s skill. Ideally in a melee-melee matchup whether you land a hit or not is determined by your offensive skills, the opponents defensive skills, loadout and luck. In a melee-archer matchup, your defensive skills are taken out of the equation. And if you tell me to evade the practically hitscan arrows I will DDoS you.

    This /10char



  • I love playing with my balanced vanguard, when I’m a 1-hit material (or dead) 50% of the time before I reach melee because of arrows of balanced archers flying everywhere.

    It gets especially fun playing offense on 24p player TO, where a third of enemy team are archers.

    Of course I can sometimes get to them with 10% health and NOT 1-hit kill them to the chest with a fkin Greatsword and then die from butterknife spam, which is great to.


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