Archer Discussion - Mercs Mod - Opinions appreciated =)



  • @Omega:

    Stan has quite a lot of hours on archer

    no offense, ive never found him to be a difficult opponent tbh

    theres only 2 archers who still play that i have to put my tryhard panties on to scrim against



  • @T:

    Did you fight the least best clan N/A? Is making a post about how you got a good score against some clan as an inexperienced archer supposed to prove a point? If you have at least 1000 put in to the game and a good gamer in general you could get that score with any class. This proves nothing. Yes everyone is on board with mercs mod, I myself support it. Though if there were nobody to speak up for archers I have a good hunch that the possibility of these changes being permanent are highly likely. I could be wrong, butt I’m not willing to take that risk and neither is a lot of other people who agree with me.

    Also keep in mind that the majority of the council have been harassed by OP archers for 2 years, to say you have a 100% unbiased opinion of archers is a filthy lie (unless you’re a saint)… Anyways… Because we have spoken up I’ve been informed that the balance council is now taking a second look at some of the ammo and damage changes and ACTUALLY taking our points into consideration (which wasn’t previously happening).

    This is all I wanted to have happen, was to be listened too and have our points taken into consideration… That was the whole point in making this thread.

    Let’s dissect this.

    1. I’m not an inexperienced archer, I have nearly 1,000 hours playing archer specifically (~2,000 playing knight/other) as the archer for Nira and my own clan before I joined Faucheur- much of which was well before you even bought this game. Crazy huh? I’m not trying to pretend that I’m some 1337 archer ( and never have), but I’m decent and I have a significant amount of experience playing the class.

    2. Melee targets are melee targets for the most part. And I was being counter-arched by a pretty good veteran archer (Chicken). I didn’t do well because of the quality of team I was facing (for the most part). I did well because I was landing my shots.

    3. My score does prove it’s possible to do well with ONE setup as I mentioned. If anything the fact that I’m not experienced (according to you) would help my argument.

    4. You clearly didn’t read my entire post. I said explicitly in my post that this was ONE very specific setup that I had success with, in ONE game.

    5. You also must have missed my post where I said (and here’s the kicker) “It’s impossible for me to have a completely unbiased opinion of archer since it isn’t my main class.”- Stan earlier this week.

    I specifically said that my experience does not portrait the current state of archer as a whole, merely one specific setup and solely my experience with that setup in one game (although I’ve had further success with it now in later scrims). Although that should be a given since it’s my account of my own experience. Clearly you’re emotional about this because you must have read every other line of my post. You also must have missed the part where I said it needs further testing, and that archer will likely need a buff again.

    Lastly, Cervantes echoed my thoughts almost exactly on the current state of archer. We both agree the Warbow with broadhead is viable; while other setups are far less viable.

    Of course you have the right to aggressively assert your point, but don’t discredit other people’s experiences simply because your emotions are getting the better of you.

    Skillz, it’s important to fully understand someone’s viewpoint before you attack it.



  • @zombojoe:

    no offense, ive never found him to be a difficult opponent tbh

    theres only 2 archers who still play that i have to put my tryhard panties on to scrim against

    I don’t think I’ve ever faced you as archer….ever, which might explain why you never found me difficult ( I don’t remember). However, I consistently hold my own vs. other good archers, there’s plenty of teammates that can back that claim up. However, I never said I was amazing at it, I think you guys implied that bit of information. Anyways, your comment is irrelevant.



  • And honestly, I just think Skillz is ready to bite anyone’s head off who doesn’t agree with his views on archer. I don’t think there’s a single person who isn’t aware of the discontent over the archer changes. With that in mind, I think everyone needs to settle down and this issue will obviously be revisited many times in the future.

    I’m probably one of the few melee players who believes the nerf was too harsh (now that I’ve seen it in practice), so it’s ironic you attack me in particular.



  • Warbow with broadheads is likely to be more viable than anything else. Simply 'cause it can oneshot archers to the chest so it’s easy to counter-archer with, especially crossbows which have the least mobility, and it’s harder to counter-archer 'cause of the mobility. It does all this while dealing more damage in all areas than say, light crossbow. Only negatives that the warbow gets are slower reload and slower projectile speed. Reload gets mitigated compared to crossbows when you can keep shooting while moving and projectile speed can be mitigated just by going closer which the mobility allows to some extent.
    Too bad I can’t test any of these changes.



  • @J-P:

    Warbow with broadheads is likely to be more viable than anything else. Simply 'cause it can oneshot archers to the chest so it’s easy to counter-archer with, especially crossbows which have the least mobility, and it’s harder to counter-archer 'cause of the mobility. It does all this while dealing more damage in all areas than say, light crossbow. Only negatives that the warbow gets are slower reload and slower projectile speed. Reload gets mitigated compared to crossbows when you can keep shooting while moving and projectile speed can be mitigated just by going closer which the mobility allows to some extent.
    Too bad I can’t test any of these changes.

    Yes, I concede those points. In fact, I completely agree. But let’s not forget, crossbows get the pavise as well. Apart from that, as I’ve said already, crossbows do need a buff vs. melee. Regular crossbow is on par with the warbow for counter arching with it’s projectile speed and pavise. And it does more damage to melee than warbow broadhead. HOWEVER, the discrepancy is pretty much negligible. So a damage buff to melee would help balance it out. And lets be honest, no one is going to go warbow bodkins in all likelyhood if they have to counterarch. So you can’t compare it to that damage.



  • Crossbows got faster projectile speed and most of them got less drop, meaning they’re definatly easier to hit with as there’s less prediction required. I don’t see a need for them to have more damage than bows, I just think they should be awarded more for headshots, which they are in vanilla, but punished for other shots.



  • Here is exactly what we, as a community, are going to do about the issue of archer balance:

    -We are going to stop theory crafting in our armchairs and we are going to scrim, and we are going to scrim, and then we are going to scrim some more.

    Why? Because, as crush says in his post:

    This is a Test Build to see how the first batch of changes voted on by the Mercs Balance Council are going to play out.

    Meaning, that right now this is ONE class that has gotten changed and it IS going to change the game. The point of this is to have a balanced game that doesn’t need to be touched so long nothing becomes obviously broken; it takes time to do this properly and the archers just happen to be the first the the council but it won’t be the last.

    All four classes AND maybe the maps are going to be discussed.

    TL;DR: Hold your horses and play the game with Mercs 1.7



  • @parkrangerstan:

    Let’s dissect this.

    1. I’m not an inexperienced archer, I have nearly 1,000 hours playing archer specifically (~2,000 playing knight/other) as the archer for Nira and my own clan before I joined Faucheur- much of which was well before you even bought this game. Crazy huh? I’m not trying to pretend that I’m some 1337 archer ( and never have), but I’m decent and I have a significant amount of experience playing the class.

    2. Melee targets are melee targets for the most part. And I was being counter-arched by a pretty good veteran archer (Chicken). I didn’t do well because of the quality of team I was facing (for the most part). I did well because I was landing my shots.

    3. My score does prove it’s possible to do well with ONE setup as I mentioned. If anything the fact that I’m not experienced (according to you) would help my argument.

    4. You clearly didn’t read my entire post. I said explicitly in my post that this was ONE very specific setup that I had success with, in ONE game.

    5. You also must have missed my post where I said (and here’s the kicker) “It’s impossible for me to have a completely unbiased opinion of archer since it isn’t my main class.”- Stan earlier this week.

    I specifically said that my experience does not portrait the current state of archer as a whole, merely one specific setup and solely my experience with that setup in one game (although I’ve had further success with it now in later scrims). Although that should be a given since it’s my account of my own experience. Clearly you’re emotional about this because you must have read every other line of my post. You also must have missed the part where I said it needs further testing, and that archer will likely need a buff again.

    Lastly, Cervantes echoed my thoughts almost exactly on the current state of archer. We both agree the Warbow with broadhead is viable; while other setups are far less viable.

    Of course you have the right to aggressively assert your point, but don’t discredit other people’s experiences simply because your emotions are getting the better of you.

    Skillz, it’s important to fully understand someone’s viewpoint before you attack it.

    1. If you have so much experience then why in your argument did you make it seem like this was not the case? Please refer to your previous statement.

    2. I agree, Chicken is a good archer. Though I’m going to refer back to what I previously said. If you have at least 1000 hours played then you have a good understanding of the game as a whole. Obtaining a good score as an archer really does not prove anything, not with the amount of hours you have clocked.

    3. Please refer to number 2.

    4. Well then I apologize for not paying full attention to one of your posts.

    5. You and I agree on this.

    6. I’m discrediting you because I do not agree with you on a few key points. Not because my emotions are getting the better of me. I only let my emotions get the better of me when I scrim, you usually experience my emotions during scrims and tournaments. :)

    Stan, try not to jump to conclusions.



  • I’m not a pro player, I only play this game occasionally and from time to time, but archers are really ruining the fun for me. Over half my deaths (I play Vanguard mostly) is to Archers. They kill me from the other side of the map in two or three shots depending on weapon before I can even see them, and zigzaging really isn’t helping.

    Like I said I only play the game occasionally (and casually), so I don’t really keep up with every little change in the patch notes. But did archers get buffed recently? Even if they haven’t, I don’t understand why there’s even Archers in a melee-oriented game like this, they should just be removed.



  • I’d say that archers got nerfed, my arrows keep ghosting since the optimization patch.



  • I have had this discussion since release when they screwed up the archers to begin with. You can look up "an Honest discussion about archers for the full thread. The biggest problem with the class ( not including Javs because they have thier own issues) is that they tried to give archers everything. The forgot the primary purpose is a RANGED class. I actually have no problems with the arrows, the 1 shot kills or the speed and damage. In fact I would add reloading and shooting arrows while running (except Xbow of coarse) and I would allow archers to kick with a bow in hand to allow them to escape melee. But the added broken chase mech and kick has currently fucked this up.

    There is a two pronged problem. One is that there is no stamina drain for reloading and holding a knocked arrow (it doesn’t have to be much, 5% to draw and 3% to hold - or divide full stamina by the number of arrows) and the other has always lied in the melee with it’s speed and ability to parry major weapon and take no damage. With the no stam drain in arching, archers are able to go into melee with full stamina and usually full health. Parrying any of the heavy weapons should also incur damage. A dagger should never parry a maul and not take damage. It is just dumb on many levels. Also not enough weapons 1 shot archers that should. (Sprint attack is a joke from day one)

    The idea is that archers should fear melee specially if they failed to sink in an arrow or two into their approaching enemy and be more dependent upon their ranged skill. They are the Chiv sniper class and should have deadly power at range and be very vulnerable up close. It is really the only way to balance the class. Simply add damage in addition to stamina drain against heavy weapons. It doesn’t have to be much but like 7%-10% would be sufficient.

    What this would accomplish it a more tactical approach to how the archer is played and used in game. It would change team tactics in wanting to sneak behind the archer and take them out instead of the current meta of flanking an archer to only have them spam you to death. It would also force team members to protect their archers and archers to be better skilled in actual arching and melee as a last resort.



  • Well I don’t know who the op is tbn. This archer class needs strict control and weakening. Its what ruined Chivalry tbh.
    As for some another elitist club excluding the rest of Chivalry players what else is new imo. On that other site
    normal players don’t even get access to this mod discussion. This Archer in any game needs to be put down on
    the bottom of any scale. They shouldn’t be able to hold of knights with mauls using butter knifes and spam as
    well as have sniping abilities from afar. Make your choice or this will end up the same way as Chivalry today.
    Which is no longer such an enjoyable game with Archers and snipers in all modes simply frag farming at
    distance etc.



  • Skills to reply back, yes I have like 4000+ hours now… and yeah when i play comp which is hardly ever anymore I do main the knight class. But 99% of the time when i’m not playing anything competitive, i play all 4 of the classes. This mod wants to be a part of the live game, so it has to balance for the live game into what it needs to be. Currently in live archers are too strong. People can talk about 5v5 or 6v6 situations in competitive all day long, but if this is planned on attemped live mod, think of the 95-99% of the game which is not anything competitive.

    Archers currently are not only overpowered in ranged damage but melee altogether. I can run around with a shortsword and probably get just as many or nearly the amount of kills i’d get as a knight for sure. I’ve done it countless times. In competitive going that direction, archers with shortswords kill the best of knights and even vanguards.

    Another thing about live is that you get hit by one arrow that doesn’t really seem to matter what bow it comes from and you’re damn near crippled.

    It’s hard not to be biased against archers when I’ve played every class trying to counter them yet I still die and even the scrubbiest of scrubs can land shots easily and do massive amounts of damage because of how broken it is. You don’t even need any skill to be an archer typically. The only real skill involved is when you’re talking about archer vs. archer. An archer shooting as melee is not skill, they cannot counter you in any way at range, and don’t say use a shield because I’m pretty sure we all know shields don’t really help the situation. (one because your shield can be shot around, and 2 if you’re using the shield to protect you at range then you get stuck trying to fight with a shield which is awful if you don’t use shields and you get stuck on defensive with people just swinging on you, and you need to swing at some point and are wide open when swinging and of course good archers shoot you at that point) so no shields are not an answer.

    So the faster regen is awesome, that gives some viability to survival against archers. Nerfind the damage needs to be done, the ammo count i already suggested that many times so limiting the number of shots is great. Ultimately, archers have been overpowered for so long that they’re used to being so powerful. If you guys can still land your shots it’s still a viable class. They just can’t continue to be the menacing bringers of death they are right now, and i think current archers need to get real about that.

    I’m all for making changes to the knight if people think it’s overpowered, like messer is pretty broken for example, and maybe sow stabs are a little dumb.

    But then i’ve played mercs and the first hit flinch seems to be very strong for 1 handers and vanguards too.

    Idk but since this is an archer discussion, they need to be nerfed. You compared nerfing to balancing… well nerfing archers is kind of HOW you balance them. I would not suggest buffing them is the right direction or leaving them the same. I’m pretty sure the balance council knows this and are nerfing appropriately.



  • @50ShadesofClay:

    Skills to reply back, yes I have like 4000+ hours now… and yeah when i play comp which is hardly ever anymore I do main the knight class. But 99% of the time when i’m not playing anything competitive, i play all 4 of the classes. This mod wants to be a part of the live game, so it has to balance for the live game into what it needs to be. Currently in live archers are too strong. People can talk about 5v5 or 6v6 situations in competitive all day long, but if this is planned on attemped live mod, think of the 95-99% of the game which is not anything competitive.

    Archers currently are not only overpowered in ranged damage but melee altogether. I can run around with a shortsword and probably get just as many or nearly the amount of kills i’d get as a knight for sure. I’ve done it countless times. In competitive going that direction, archers with shortswords kill the best of knights and even vanguards.

    Another thing about live is that you get hit by one arrow that doesn’t really seem to matter what bow it comes from and you’re damn near crippled.

    It’s hard not to be biased against archers when I’ve played every class trying to counter them yet I still die and even the scrubbiest of scrubs can land shots easily and do massive amounts of damage because of how broken it is. You don’t even need any skill to be an archer typically. The only real skill involved is when you’re talking about archer vs. archer. An archer shooting as melee is not skill, they cannot counter you in any way at range, and don’t say use a shield because I’m pretty sure we all know shields don’t really help the situation. (one because your shield can be shot around, and 2 if you’re using the shield to protect you at range then you get stuck trying to fight with a shield which is awful if you don’t use shields and you get stuck on defensive with people just swinging on you, and you need to swing at some point and are wide open when swinging and of course good archers shoot you at that point) so no shields are not an answer.

    So the faster regen is awesome, that gives some viability to survival against archers. Nerfind the damage needs to be done, the ammo count i already suggested that many times so limiting the number of shots is great. Ultimately, archers have been overpowered for so long that they’re used to being so powerful. If you guys can still land your shots it’s still a viable class. They just can’t continue to be the menacing bringers of death they are right now, and i think current archers need to get real about that.

    I’m all for making changes to the knight if people think it’s overpowered, like messer is pretty broken for example, and maybe sow stabs are a little dumb.

    But then i’ve played mercs and the first hit flinch seems to be very strong for 1 handers and vanguards too.

    Idk but since this is an archer discussion, they need to be nerfed. You compared nerfing to balancing… well nerfing archers is kind of HOW you balance them. I would not suggest buffing them is the right direction or leaving them the same. I’m pretty sure the balance council knows this and are nerfing appropriately.

    To be straight with you Clay I stopped reading this post after you said “You don’t even need any skill to be an archer typically” You saying that just proves how biased you really are… The archer class is a “high risk, high reward” class. If you’re bad then you won’t kill anything and be on the bottom of the scoreboard. Though if you have skill you land a lot of shots, can hold your own in melee and be supportive of your team. There’s a lot of skill required to be a good archer. (eg, positioning, accuracy, melee, support, communication) A pro archer perfects these skills to make you THINK that it’s mostly archers that are OP, when it in reality it’s just the archer you are fighting who is OP. ARCHER is the most OP class in this game only to those who know how to use it. These balance changes are limiting the capabilities of the skillful players wielding the class more then the actual class. If you were to go up against an average archer with these changes you would barely notice him being there…

    If you can’t see the truth to this then you’re extremely biased or really don’t care. Regardless, I’m done arguing my point, I’ve wasted enough energy on this topic so I wont be replying to anyone on this thread anymore.



  • Archer doesn’t need nearly as much skill at all as the other classes do to dominate. Sure, if enemy team has an archer pressuring you, you need more skill then, but now it becomes just a fight of which team has the better archer, and that is such fucking bullshit in a melee focused game.



  • I’ve been palying a lot of sling and javelins lately, because I felt I might require some more time with them for input on the weapons.
    Javelins are way broken, they’re way too strong, especially heavy javelins or shortspears, but also the regular ones. They’re fast, they hurt, they’re easy to hit, they flinch. The buckler, even though shields don’t help against archers and works against you in melee is actually a huge advantage, Archers almost always have to hit me twice in the legs to take me down, I take them down in one hit easily. I can also jump block a vanguard, or even knight and fly a few meters backwards and windup a throw midair, hit them with the javelin, which causes a flinch and then go for a quick shieldbash or even a stab to finish them off. Seriously theese weapons need a quick nerf, for example not being holdable, as soon as you hit lmb you throw, I can hold my arm in ready position forever, I can feint it and it costs no stamina, I can easily make people crouch or even panic parry just by raising my spear, just to get a free stab.
    Sling, people said it was worse now without the flinch, I can’t see it. I can run up to peoples face, throw a rock and switch weapon fast enough to parry. I hit 50% of my pebbles, even though it may not flinch attacks, it still flinches parries. It’s a pain for the opposing team, I played on a 26 player TO server with an archer limit of 1, the opposing team kept complaining about all the archers. Sling is not good in archer v archer battles, but against melee it’s probably the best weapon there is. You can get in close and personal, missing with it at close quarters is hard, it’s almost like you have to try and miss, you might not dish out a huge amount of damage, but you will take the MAA down to a 1hit from any 2h weapon and sometimes even the vanguard. the knight might get 2hit instead of 3hit-4hit thanks to your projectiles. You see your maul ally attacking some dude, you flinch the opponents parry and bam he’s dead. If not for being useless in archer v archer I’d call it overpowered.

    While both crossbows and bows might be ridicolous in their own way you really can’t use them if the opponent is too close, you’re not going to flinch and you can’t always risk taking winding up a shot with an enemy 5-10 meters away, shortbow may be an exception. I still think they require a nerf, the damage they deal is unacceptable, it’s way too high.



  • @Xylvion:

    Javelins are way broken, they’re way too strong, especially heavy javelins or shortspears, but also the regular ones. They’re fast, they hurt, they’re easy to hit, they flinch.

    I dont think so, I see Oh only ever going javs and while sure it hurts, javelins have a major major weakness, immediately after they are completely exposed to a one hit kill as they fall into a long recovery. Completely unlike the archer who can fire, whip out his dagger, parry and riposte with instant stab stab stab where you are on the defensive and panicking while that ranged little shit stabs your face.



  • I’m just gonna tweak what CRUSHED said a ways back.

    Tell me a reason why a knight needs 3-4 htk in a melee fight where both opponents have a chance to hit each other and an archer should be able to 1 or 2 shot classes all day from distance?

    Damage nerf is the only way to bring archers in line.



  • Maul can 1-2shot, dubaxe can 2 shot, grandmace can 2 shot, so can warhammer, poleaxe, bearded axe and heavy flail. There’s only 4/11 knight primaries that require more than 2 hits on another knight, 3 of them are swords that should be weak against knights. Sling pebble might require 3-9 shots, shortbow broadhead requires 3-7 shots.
    You can’t compare the weakest knight weapons to the strongest archer weapons, the same way you can’t compare the strongest knight weapons to the weakest archer weapons.
    I’m not saying that archers don’t need a damage nerf, they do, but that comparison is stupid.


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