Drags & Feints



  • @zombojoe:

    if anyone talks shit a lot i switch to archer and fuck him up until he leaves

    its not like they are going to be able to counter archer me, theres only like 3 people that can

    This would be great when someone plays an “overpowered” weapon so you can show them the real meaning of overpowered. Too bad I only have like 2 hours on archer



  • @The:

    It’s a back and forth here with nothing said. You say you disprove my claims while saying nothing yourself to back up this assertion. I asked for specifics of what can be done if I attack and you parry. You make a reference to team fights which I am not discussing. I am discussing pure one on one combat. The elegant art of dueling, not the clumsy mess of team modes (in public) or the stressful cooperation of an organized team (I’m not a team player).

    I already mentioned swerving. If you parry me I have a chance to dart to the side and make you miss your riposte or intended feint fakeout but it’s only a chance. It’s unreliable. It’s comparable to swerving to dodge an archer’s arrow. It can work, but it’s unreliable and in the end, if the archer/other player has sufficient skill, you will simply be hit. It is unavoidable. No counterplay. You either take a chance in footwork to escape or take a chance in guessing if their follow up attack is real or a feint. And that’s all you get, a chance to predict their move because a good player gets up close and holds the attack long enough for 99.9999999% of human brains to lack the necessary time to computate all the variables to reach a conclusion; feint (y) - (n)?

    That to me is not fun and does not add anything to the game as a whole for duels. Maybe it has to be so strong in team modes, though I question that. In fact, I reckon feints are even more potent in team modes precisely because there is so much going on. Your mental faculties are spread more thin so any move is more potent than in a duel. If you made parrying harder and feints weaker, team modes would flow just as fine as they do now, if not even faster.

    Fighting and winning against multiple opponents is very tough if they are near your skill level. I don’t see that as imbalanced or justification for a relatively overpowered mechanic to continue existing.

    I can agree with this. Feints too stronk, I have never seen anyone who doesn’t gamble, even in videos, due feints and general bullshit this game has that limits the skill ceiling. Too much gamble situations imo.

    I don’t think Quake is like this, for example.

    But you gotta admit that its not chaos too man, because it isn’t. Even if some of these fucked up situations happens, you can win the fight by outplaying your opponent. But I also think we don’t need these fucked up situations to happen in the first place.

    I think Slasher will be better in this sense.



  • @Retsnom:

    Noone said this….

    Messer is another problem all together. As I have proven in another post that the ALT swing range is ridiculously greater than the regular swing thus the ability of this relatively short weapon to hit you out of range is far greater than most weapons. Because the ALT swing of the messer is so great it tends to be a little on the OP side. Throw in a feint into an ALT swing and even when you react to the feint properly and think you are out of range, you are not.

    Sadly that is all the “GUD” players are playing is the freaking Messer now a days. Lots of armor, lots of damage, and fast. I even was playing against a supposed lvl 60 last night and that is what he played but I also noticed that he was constantly glitching his character and just talked way too much trash and he constantly feinted with it and was turning like there was no turn cap. But after a few fights I caught onto his patterns and could kill him quite equally. That cat was the biggest jerk to everyone in game though, just would not shut up in chat. So I just didnt say anything and kept recking him.

    Well tbh I have seen yet another of these Messer Alt swingers on official ffa #2 uk/euro. Right now! So blatant atm its 33 to 1 death.
    Down to the T of your first paragraph. I would even go as far to say in some of its crouch feint seemingly instant overhead
    alt messer swings that a few of those moves did not even show the sword movement at all or animation with sound.
    As you see him crouch your dead hehe. My habit is to first head to spec just to get a feel for the kind of players in game.
    he was pinged about 75 to 90. Also I noted another almost clone pinged about 16? Its a pattern on the increase imo.

    I also thought the messer was with a different skin most likely purchased some time back as I myself have it but never
    used it as it was part of a package deal of skins and swords etc.



  • @Retsnom:

    I have said everything you needed to know to back up my assertion as well a instructions on how to avoid and improve your ability to deal with feints. There will always be a small percentage that you will fail even if you are skilled mostly due to ping/lag or shitty FPS.

    Swerving away after you’ve been parried is not just unreliable, it’s independent of your skill and reliant on your opponent’s accuracy. Just like fighting archers, there’s no counterplay. If they are good enough, you simply get hit. That is horrible design.

    This game has never been about 1v1, dueling was an after thought. As a matter of fact it was the fans that created the dueling servers long before the dueling maps or duel mode was even created. So there is no “elegant” art of dueling 1v1 in this game. It has always been who can pull off the best exploits with the most OP weapons. That is why you rarely see polearms in duels or archers. It is mostly all swords. So your entire thought process is based on a false premise.

    Actually I partially agree with you here. The game isn’t focused around duels, which means if balancing duels would ruin the balance of team fights it should not be done. Fortunately balancing feints would do no such thing.

    I also disagree with your premise that the human brain/reaction time is incapable. The human brain is very capable of calculating every scenario possible and reacting to it. I just don’t think yours is nor are you willing to practice and gaining the skills and you have continually demonstrated this to be true. Again your entire argument is crying about there is no counter and you are only using footwork as being unreliable. That is silly on several points as I have given you many examples of things to do to combat this; footwork, the 3 types of duck, ftp, cftp, jump, distance kiting, aggression, be more patient before hitting the parry button, kicking and on and on.

    Everything you mention is out of the primary context of attack and be parried. As a knight my movement is slow. If I attempt to maneuver away, I will be hit most of the time by accurate players. Period. If I don’t run away and try to defend against their attack, I can make an educated guess based on their previous patterns to ascertain if the followup will be a feint or not. Also unreliable.

    I cannot directly react to a feint and nor can the vast majority of human beings. At best I have 180 ms reaction time. And that’s a boost from decades worth of gaming. No amount of training will change that fundamental base. 180 ms is not enough to react to close range stab feints or reverse feints. Even with high fps and fov it would be tough outside of a lan setting.

    It is not just about footwork it is about pressing your will or even keeping your distance and waiting for the right moment to counter. The nice thing about hit trades is that it works just like counter punching does in boxing but ideally you want to make them miss while yours hits. I think you think that you should be able to avoid and counter everything without every taking any damage. Sorry the game isn’t designed that way. Can you do it ? Sure if you are very skilled but many times for me to get the kill/WIN, I will take a well placed/timed hit trade knowing they will be out of stam when they feint and time my next attack while keeping my range. Most players tend to face hug more often than not and many players do not know how to maintain the proper distance when fighting. Distance is the key factor in being able to deal with feints and other tricks like reverse drags in the use of footwork. Nothing is reliable 100% of the time.

    Hit trades do not work with a longsword as the damage output is pitiful. Yes, with proper skill you should be able to avoid damage. As it currently stands it doesn’t take skill to defend directly against good feints, it takes extremely low ping, extremely advanced computer hardware, and absurd mental reaction time.

    Well if the game is not fun for you as designed then maybe you should simply quit and find a game that better fits your crazy sense of balance and necessity.

    Ah yes, wishing for the easiest offensive maneuver in the entire game to not be the strongest by a mile, that makes me crazy.



  • @The:

    Swerving away after you’ve been parried is not just unreliable, it’s independent of your skill and reliant on your opponent’s accuracy. Just like fighting archers, there’s no counterplay. If they are good enough, you simply get hit. That is horrible design.

    Sorry but that is where skill and experience comes into play and being able to maintain your distance and use skilled timing knowing when to attack. For example: when I am fighting, many times I am backing up and side stepping to keep my distance and always try to attack with the very end of my weapon. But other times I will will attack then blow past and around the enemy and they lose me, I then do a 180 overhead and boom. Foot work is always reliable if you maintain the proper distance and timing for your weapon and class. Oh and I almost always feint an archer or MAA because for me I play slow telegraphing weapons vs the overly spammy. If you want to talk about individual weapons and classes, that is another story.

    Actually I partially agree with you here. The game isn’t focused around duels, which means if balancing duels would ruin the balance of team fights it should not be done. Fortunately balancing feints would do no such thing.

    They are not unbalanced because everyone can use them and they are great for the slow short weapons like double axe.

    Everything you mention is out of the primary context of attack and be parried. As a knight my movement is slow. If I attempt to maneuver away, I will be hit most of the time by accurate players. Period. If I don’t run away and try to defend against their attack, I can make an educated guess based on their previous patterns to ascertain if the followup will be a feint or not. Also unreliable.

    You are also playing knight which has far more armor and if you are playing any of the swords you can also out stam someone. But even still, again I mention range and foot work but with knight you have to be more aggressive. I know far too many messer and longsword/shield players that are very fast and hard to beat because of their patience then aggressiveness. So if these guys can rek me so can you. You must be doing something different or not doing. I dont play knight that much but when I do I like double axe and maul because of the damage and the double axe is just too much fun and rewarding with double OH combos.

    I cannot directly react to a feint and nor can the vast majority of human beings. At best I have 180 ms reaction time. And that’s a boost from decades worth of gaming. No amount of training will change that fundamental base. 180 ms is not enough to react to close range stab feints or reverse feints. Even with high fps and fov it would be tough outside of a lan setting.

    Again I disagree. And I will repeat that this game is not action/reaction. It is more rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spok kind of a game and was billed as such. There are far too many possibilities and tactics that is why you have to be thinking 2 to 3 steps ahead and preparing for them as well as planning what you are going to do. This is what many other have said about the aggression/anticipation/prediction, basically being in the zone. If you havent played in the zone where you are accurately responding to and predicting what the other players are going to so and then you just stomp the living shit out of them over and over again, I feel sorry for you. That zone is all about almost preternatural possession of the game and it is a blast. I can lost hours playing Chiv when I am in the zone crushing and winning map after map. That comes with time and experience. Rarely does a player show me something new or that I could not have handled. Sure I still get rekt on occasion and to be honest I mostly get kill because of archers.

    Hit trades do not work with a longsword as the damage output is pitiful. Yes, with proper skill you should be able to avoid damage. As it currently stands it doesn’t take skill to defend directly against good feints, it takes extremely low ping, extremely advanced computer hardware, and absurd mental reaction time.

    I will agree that PING is the most important thing in the game but this is true with most all games. but Chiv is very ping dependent. I used to play with 90-110 ping for the first few years until I got Google fiber. Now my pings are are in the 30s and 40s. I have a gig down AND a gig up. I think that upload speed is probably more important with Chiv than anything and most players only have on avg 1-2 Megs up. Hardware is somewhat a factor but I still did well when I had my old potato. That is why if you search for tweaks, you will find that most of them were posted by me as I spent weeks searching and testing tweaks and ways to make chiv play better stronger faster.

    I still dont think it takes absurd mental reaction time, it takes patience.

    Ah yes, wishing for the easiest offensive maneuver in the entire game to not be the strongest by a mile, that makes me crazy.

    I again like many disagree that it is the easiest, offensive, or strongest maneuver in the game. Hell I would lean more towards the ripost being the easiest and most devastatingly powerful once you learn how to do it consistently and on demand. That took a long time for me to get and I practiced my ass off with bots and in ffa just parring and trying to riposte. Also remember that a feint can do no damage. It is the follow up swing that does it so the skill is knowing what attack to throw after a feint. And I have had plenty of those parried as well. (mostly cause I play a slow assed weapon) Where as, ripostes can to damage and kill with a single button.



  • Well nothing about feints are difficiult.

    It just isn’t a problem.



  • Not really a text wall worth climbing tbh that posterguy #121.

    Perhaps I can kill 2 birds with one stone here.
    http://i.imgur.com/LIX4tQd.jpg

    Here you have 121 explaining how to deal with feints to #119
    captured in one kodak moment.

    Why does poster #119 not complain of the far worst traits in this game rather then a known hard coded function
    from the day of its release.? Bear in mind I play in fov 90 of first person. Reading these can be done fov 90 proves it.



  • @Retsnom:

    I again like many disagree that it is the easiest, offensive, or strongest maneuver in the game. Hell I would lean more towards the ripost being the easiest and most devastatingly powerful once you learn how to do it consistently and on demand. That took a long time for me to get and I practiced my ass off with bots and in ffa just parring and trying to riposte. Also remember that a feint can do no damage. It is the follow up swing that does it so the skill is knowing what attack to throw after a feint. And I have had plenty of those parried as well. (mostly cause I play a slow assed weapon) Where as, ripostes can to damage and kill with a single button.

    No way ripostes are more deadly then feints, I can’t even understand this Rets. Ripostes are easy as fuck to deal with, I can riposte you all day and you will parry. I feint you, you are fucked and going to gamble, as you already said you do as well.

    Gambling gets you killed if I’m patient. Reacting keeps you alive. You can react to every riposte, you can’t do that to feints.



  • @Vanguard:

    No way ripostes are more deadly then feints, I can’t even understand this Rets. Ripostes are easy as fuck to deal with, I can riposte you all day and you will parry. I feint you, you are fucked and going to gamble, as you already said you do as well.

    Gambling gets you killed if I’m patient. Reacting keeps you alive. You can react to every riposte, you can’t do that to feints.

    That is simply not true, you can react to every feint as well. You talk about being patient, you have to be more so to deal with feints. It is all about if you make a mistake. The feint itself does zero damage. I you do not parry a feint then you punish. You can get into a feint war just as easy as you can get into riposte war till someone runs out of stamina. I was playing a lvl 56 just last night that all he did as a messer (go figure) did a shit ton of feinting. At first I was like, that is unusual. Which it is to be that rank and that dependent upon it. So I thought it was a one time thing. It took me a few rounds to figure out that he was totally dependent upon it. Once I learned his patterns it was much easier to crush him and take advantage of him specially after I switched to pole hammer. The we would get into very long fights of feinting and ripostes battles till one of us ran out of stamina. In these cases it always came down to who pressed the most and who made a mistake first.



  • @Retsnom:

    I was playing a lvl 56 just last night that all he did as a messer (go figure) did a shit ton of feinting. At first I was like, that is unusual. Which it is to be that rank and that dependent upon it.

    you should really stop thinking there is any real correlation between rank and skill



  • Incorrect tbh. When you see for example Two very strong knights fighting you can see the difference.
    The more time you spend in practice the better you get in any game/sport/hobby tbh. Rank = time marker.



  • Feints are definitely readable, it’s just that it requires (IMO) immense skill to do so. I haven’t met a single person under rank 40 who can read ANY feints, and even myself, a rank 45, can only read feints about 70% of the time when i’m actually anticipating feints being used.

    The thing about feints is that (again, IMO) they’re needed to fight people who are so good that dragging just doesn’t help, but there’s nothing in place to make them not worth using on other less-skilled players as well.

    Solution? I have no clue, but at the end of the day the only thing I can say is git gud.



  • @Retsnom:

    That is simply not true, you can react to every feint as well. You talk about being patient, you have to be more so to deal with feints. It is all about if you make a mistake. The feint itself does zero damage. I you do not parry a feint then you punish. You can get into a feint war just as easy as you can get into riposte war till someone runs out of stamina. I was playing a lvl 56 just last night that all he did as a messer (go figure) did a shit ton of feinting. At first I was like, that is unusual. Which it is to be that rank and that dependent upon it. So I thought it was a one time thing. It took me a few rounds to figure out that he was totally dependent upon it. Once I learned his patterns it was much easier to crush him and take advantage of him specially after I switched to pole hammer. The we would get into very long fights of feinting and ripostes battles till one of us ran out of stamina. In these cases it always came down to who pressed the most and who made a mistake first.

    I heavily doubt that you can read feints of instant attacks, the ones that start inside your face. That for me simply is not true and I ask for profs if you say otherwise.

    The question here is: you can’t react to some feints and not fall for them. You can’t be 100%, not even 95% safe from feints. Never saw this, someone that is this good at feint reading. I’m gonna be sincere here, I do believe that ego plays a major role in this discussion, especially when you say you can react to every feint, either that or you play with predictable noobs.

    As I told ya, animations + internet shit makes this nearly impossible imo. The solution? Idk Mercs guys suggested that the first frames of a attack does not deal damage, that sounds like a plan imo and will help to make what you say true. In vanilla chiv, I heavily doubt its possible, totally bullshit. Hell not even just feints, there are some fake-out reverse overheads/slashes that are pure gamble if you parry them or not, how the fuck you will know if he will hit you with the instant part or drag the shit out of it? Now imagine this shit being feinted.

    Also Rekrab is right imo, rank means shit.



  • @Rekrab:

    you should really stop thinking there is any real correlation between rank and skill

    I don’t but it is the only unit of measure that we have to go upon. In my case there was a radical change in playing from 1-39 ish and then again from 40-50. I am sure I will learn and get better, more skills by the time I hit 60. Most people will agree that there are big differences of learning and skill between those ranks.

    @Vanguard:

    I heavily doubt that you can read feints of instant attacks, the ones that start inside your face. That for me simply is not true and I ask for profs if you say otherwise.

    The question here is: you can’t react to some feints and not fall for them. You can’t be 100%, not even 95% safe from feints. Never saw this, someone that is this good at feint reading. I’m gonna be sincere here, I do believe that ego plays a major role in this discussion, especially when you say you can react to every feint, either that or you play with predictable noobs.

    As I told ya, animations + internet shit makes this nearly impossible imo. The solution? Idk Mercs guys suggested that the first frames of a attack does not deal damage, that sounds like a plan imo and will help to make what you say true. In vanilla chiv, I heavily doubt its possible, totally bullshit. Hell not even just feints, there are some fake-out reverse overheads/slashes that are pure gamble if you parry them or not, how the fuck you will know if he will hit you with the instant part or drag the shit out of it? Now imagine this shit being feinted.

    Also Rekrab is right imo, rank means shit.

    Ok first off, no one is 100% on reading anything 100% of the time otherwise no one would die. It is not about reading it so much as it is not making any mistakes. You are right, Ego has nothing to do with this. But you can react or not react to every feint depending on your skill level. The problem is that we are human and make poor choices as well as bad reactions. The other thing I will keep beating into your heads is distance and footwork…. if you are getting face hugged, it is much harder and less time to read and react to a feint and it is your fault for letting them get that close. I cannot stress enough that it is all about maintaining the right distance. This can be very hard. I have never said any of this is easy. I and other keep saying to practice with a friend feinting over and over with different weapons. You will start to pick it up and see what I and many others keep repeating.

    I fall for feints when I am being too aggressive and I get target fixated on what I want to do instead of being patient. On occasion I get too defensive and will fall for one but that is getting pretty rare. My skills are pretty good but far from the best. I can only tell you from experience that while they are frustrating when you miss one, fall for one a lot of times it is my own fault. I have also said that some weapons are more prone to have instant feint attacks, aka messer. But that is the weapon not the feint mechanic. There is a difference with almost every weapon on how long/short you have to pull off a feint. With the halberd you can instant feint or you can delay that feint for quite a bit, specially with the stab feint. But again that is the weapon not the mechanic.

    That is the beauty of the mechanic, even the best players will fall for them on occasion. It gives a better playing field and is really more balanced than you think given both players have access to the same mechanic. There is nothing wrong with it. What would the point be of having the hit after the feint do no damage? You might as well just remove it entirely… dumb dumb dumb.

    Nothing is more fun then punishing a feint. It is even more fun when you crush someone after they pulled off a successful feint and they think they won, you take the hit then crush them.

    I understand your frustration. I understand shitty ping and shitty hardware as I played the first year and a half with both. There isnt much you can do about that and I am sorry. But I know that my skills have progressed over time and they are night and day what they were even last year. I have never claimed that anything is 100% nor have I claimed that it is easy. I am saying there is nothing wrong with the mechanic. It balances the game and breaks up the monotony. There is more skill with it than without it on both sides of the argument.

    It is still a dead fucking horse, it is stinking up the place. It will not be removed and I doubt it will be nerfed. If they do it in Mercs, god rest it’s soul… the sprint charge and no archer balance is bad enough.



  • Only Ranked players can read feints tbh. The vans that say rank is **** tbh, one does not class as anything but generic.
    http://i.imgur.com/Js8sPYY.jpg

    If you look at Knights with no faults in combat, you can always tell the ones that have played as vanguards. They still
    try to run about at fov 130, in large circles attacking anybody, this class already has better range, speed, spam plus
    charge but even then still try to complain about in game feints from my experience ,even the vans that exploit on
    top of that classes basic advantages. I doubt 99.1 percent of vans even know what a combination move is with sword.

    These generic untrained vans, even the ranked ones eventually run into a genuine ranked player who never has
    any problems beating them as they lack any depth of combat, esp the so called ranked vans. IN that context (van)
    off course rank means squat as do my biscuits that commit suicide and jump of the cliff edge of my
    Earl grey tea cup to drown in a more the usual complex tea. As they do in battles , they simply don’t
    understand.



  • @loin:

    Only Ranked players can read feints tbh. The vans that say rank is **** tbh, one does not class as anything but generic.
    http://i.imgur.com/Js8sPYY.jpg

    If you look at Knights with no faults in combat, you can always tell the ones that have played as vanguards. They still
    try to run about at fov 130, in large circles attacking anybody, this class already has better range, speed, spam plus
    charge but even then still try to complain about in game feints from my experience ,even the vans that exploit on
    top of that classes basic advantages. I doubt 99.1 percent of vans even know what a combination move is with sword.

    These generic untrained vans, even the ranked ones eventually run into a genuine ranked player who never has
    any problems beating them as they lack any depth of combat, esp the so called ranked vans. IN that context (van)
    off course rank means squat as do my biscuits that commit suicide and jump of the cliff edge of my
    Earl grey tea cup to drown in a more the usual complex tea. As they do in battles , they simply don’t
    understand.

    You know, I see more messer knights spamming them vanguards ehehe, especially if you consider hit trading.

    @Retsnom:

    Ok first off, no one is 100% on reading anything 100% of the time otherwise no one would die. It is not about reading it so much as it is not making any mistakes. You are right, Ego has nothing to do with this. But you can react or not react to every feint depending on your skill level. The problem is that we are human and make poor choices as well as bad reactions. The other thing I will keep beating into your heads is distance and footwork…. if you are getting face hugged, it is much harder and less time to read and react to a feint and it is your fault for letting them get that close. I cannot stress enough that it is all about maintaining the right distance. This can be very hard. I have never said any of this is easy. I and other keep saying to practice with a friend feinting over and over with different weapons. You will start to pick it up and see what I and many others keep repeating.

    I fall for feints when I am being too aggressive and I get target fixated on what I want to do instead of being patient. On occasion I get too defensive and will fall for one but that is getting pretty rare. My skills are pretty good but far from the best. I can only tell you from experience that while they are frustrating when you miss one, fall for one a lot of times it is my own fault. I have also said that some weapons are more prone to have instant feint attacks, aka messer. But that is the weapon not the feint mechanic. There is a difference with almost every weapon on how long/short you have to pull off a feint. With the halberd you can instant feint or you can delay that feint for quite a bit, specially with the stab feint. But again that is the weapon not the mechanic.

    That is the beauty of the mechanic, even the best players will fall for them on occasion. It gives a better playing field and is really more balanced than you think given both players have access to the same mechanic. There is nothing wrong with it. What would the point be of having the hit after the feint do no damage? You might as well just remove it entirely… dumb dumb dumb.

    Nothing is more fun then punishing a feint. It is even more fun when you crush someone after they pulled off a successful feint and they think they won, you take the hit then crush them.

    I understand your frustration. I understand shitty ping and shitty hardware as I played the first year and a half with both. There isnt much you can do about that and I am sorry. But I know that my skills have progressed over time and they are night and day what they were even last year. I have never claimed that anything is 100% nor have I claimed that it is easy. I am saying there is nothing wrong with the mechanic. It balances the game and breaks up the monotony. There is more skill with it than without it on both sides of the argument.

    It is still a dead fucking horse, it is stinking up the place. It will not be removed and I doubt it will be nerfed. If they do it in Mercs, god rest it’s soul… the sprint charge and no archer balance is bad enough.

    Yeah, I’m neither frustrated with the mechanic or think it should be gone, as you might have noticed from my previous posts in this thread. Imo they are just kinda strong, idk, especially if you consider this game has some fast as fuck attacks. Its not chaos as the other man put it, but its also not all flowers and balance. My point being, if your opponent is unpredictable, you can react to drags, but you will fall for some feints (the well made ones) because you can’t react to them. At least I never saw anyone reacting to a halberd accelerated slash feint, for example.

    Maybe someday, who knows. I heavily doubt its possible thou.

    “What would the point be of having the hit after the feint do no damage? You might as well just remove it entirely… dumb dumb dumb.”

    I think you misunderstood mate, what I said is that the guys are working on fixing them most absurd b0ckswings, and this will help in some fucked up feints too.



  • At least feints were in the game on release, as some of those other combat things surfaced it was easier to later on
    simply edit a few paragraphs to allude they were a part of the game then fix the obvious bugs in combat. Its practical.
    The point is when Mr exploiter is doing his stuff regardless of class he plays, even purpose glitching added to animation
    breaking, that they actually have the audacity to complain a player used a feint to kill them while callvote to kick that
    feint player off the server in some extremes, while even being very vocal and abusive to the feint killer
    I would have to agree with Mr Retsnom you can learn to read
    feints to the point that its simply a reflex with no thought required.



  • Combat would be dull and too easy without drags
    Combat would be long and too boring without feints

    Calling out rank 55 claymore feinters as skill-less scrubs while reading and easily killing them is not boring at all, it’s fun

    Having an intense fight with a mate very skilled in directional drags is intense and fun, no matter the outcome. Add feints to that and you’ve got an interesting, really challenging match.

    Why can’t we just learn to enjoy both and play normally? (except for pings like mine obviously)

    Although I have to say that the b0ck swings that look like pronounced delayed swings are not fun to fight against. Yes they’re hard to deal with. Yes after the same person does it twice you’re almost never going to fall for it for the duration of the match, making him an easy kill. but that is exactly what I find annoying - most people that do this are otherwise unskilled. It’s a simple to perform crutch that once you counter that one move, they’ll lose 99% of the time.

    It’s just a way for people who don’t want to bother to try to get a lucky kill on people who do want to bother.



  • @Retsnom:

    Sorry but that is where skill and experience comes into play and being able to maintain your distance and use skilled timing knowing when to attack. For example: when I am fighting, many times I am backing up and side stepping to keep my distance and always try to attack with the very end of my weapon. But other times I will will attack then blow past and around the enemy and they lose me, I then do a 180 overhead and boom. Foot work is always reliable if you maintain the proper distance and timing for your weapon and class. Oh and I almost always feint an archer or MAA because for me I play slow telegraphing weapons vs the overly spammy. If you want to talk about individual weapons and classes, that is another story.

    That does not work as knight. Yes, I can do my best to try and predict the best timing to attack. This is true with or without feints. Without feints, it’s a short window, trying to attack just before they do, to either flinch or force a ftp. But if I miss the timing, I don’t have to fall back to a coinflip on if I get hit after. I simply rely on my defensive skill to not get hit by their followup.

    If I attack and get parried, it’s back to that coinflip, either in trying to swerve away (footwork) or defending against a potential feint.

    They are not unbalanced because everyone can use them and they are great for the slow short weapons like double axe.

    You do not understand balance. Give everyone a nuke that one shots the other player. Everyone can use it, but that doesn’t make it balanced, because it vastly dwarfs other maneuvers of the same purpose (tricking your opponent). Balance is internally relative to mechanics of similar purpose.

    You are also playing knight which has far more armor and if you are playing any of the swords you can also out stam someone. But even still, again I mention range and foot work but with knight you have to be more aggressive. I know far too many messer and longsword/shield players that are very fast and hard to beat because of their patience then aggressiveness. So if these guys can rek me so can you. You must be doing something different or not doing. I dont play knight that much but when I do I like double axe and maul because of the damage and the double axe is just too much fun and rewarding with double OH combos.

    Of course you’ll like the maul, it’s quick and dirty. It’s not elegant, just like feints. You do anything to win, even if it’s a cheap and easy kill.

    You throw out words without point. Being aggressive doesn’t matter when in specific situations as I mentioned, I will be relegated to highly unreliable methods for defense. That is boring and bad design.

    Again I disagree. And I will repeat that this game is not action/reaction. It is more rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spok kind of a game and was billed as such. There are far too many possibilities and tactics that is why you have to be thinking 2 to 3 steps ahead and preparing for them as well as planning what you are going to do. This is what many other have said about the aggression/anticipation/prediction, basically being in the zone. If you havent played in the zone where you are accurately responding to and predicting what the other players are going to so and then you just stomp the living shit out of them over and over again, I feel sorry for you. That zone is all about almost preternatural possession of the game and it is a blast. I can lost hours playing Chiv when I am in the zone crushing and winning map after map. That comes with time and experience. Rarely does a player show me something new or that I could not have handled. Sure I still get rekt on occasion and to be honest I mostly get kill because of archers.

    This game was not billed as anything. It was not marketted as a competitive title. TBS never expected people to be insanely competitive in it. That’s why feints didn’t even have a ms cutoff point at the start. It was a casual romp, not a serious title.

    I know the “zone”, and it’s just as effective without feints. You predict what your opponent will do and when to attack, it’s amazing against maa but against other classes. The difference is if you land a hit, you earned it. You didn’t get a dirty effortless hit in via a feint.

    I will agree that PING is the most important thing in the game but this is true with most all games. but Chiv is very ping dependent. I used to play with 90-110 ping for the first few years until I got Google fiber. Now my pings are are in the 30s and 40s. I have a gig down AND a gig up. I think that upload speed is probably more important with Chiv than anything and most players only have on avg 1-2 Megs up. Hardware is somewhat a factor but I still did well when I had my old potato. That is why if you search for tweaks, you will find that most of them were posted by me as I spent weeks searching and testing tweaks and ways to make chiv play better stronger faster.

    I still dont think it takes absurd mental reaction time, it takes patience.

    First, go to hell for having Google fiber. Not fair. Secondly, it takes a high reaction time to be able to process the incoming information in time. It’s simple. If you’re near me and feint, my brain has to actively analyze information up to the point you feint. If my brain is quick enough to wait until the cutoff point (after accounting for close range instant hits and ping) than I don’t have to parry. If your brain is not quick enough, there just isn’t enough time to decide if it’s a real attack or not.

    Yes, you can have a quick brain but still be nervous and on edge, and that can lead to panic parries or quick parries, but if your brain is fundamentally too slow, you can never react to good feints.

    I again like many disagree that it is the easiest, offensive, or strongest maneuver in the game. Hell I would lean more towards the ripost being the easiest and most devastatingly powerful once you learn how to do it consistently and on demand. That took a long time for me to get and I practiced my ass off with bots and in ffa just parring and trying to riposte. Also remember that a feint can do no damage. It is the follow up swing that does it so the skill is knowing what attack to throw after a feint. And I have had plenty of those parried as well. (mostly cause I play a slow assed weapon) Where as, ripostes can to damage and kill with a single button.

    Ripostes take a lot of time to perfect. Hundreds of hours to truly master. Whereas a complete newbie can “master” feints in an hour, if that. Get close, hold the feint for a while. You’re a master now. It’s ridiculous. And ripostes do not guarantee hits against good players. Even knife ripostes aren’t anywhere near as tough to defend against than feints.



  • @The:

    Ripostes take a lot of time to perfect. Hundreds of hours to truly master. Whereas a complete newbie can “master” feints in an hour, if that. Get close, hold the feint for a while. You’re a master now. It’s ridiculous. And ripostes do not guarantee hits against good players. Even knife ripostes aren’t anywhere near as tough to defend against than feints.

    What
    Ripostes, especially as MAA, are fast as hell by nature.
    All it takes is scrollwheel + accel after parrying, and as long as the knockback isn’t too great it’s going to be fast as hell. Anyone can do that.

    Feinting relies on being able to stress your opponent leaving as little openings of your own while forcing as many openings on your opponent. If your opponent is calm and your feint isn’t exact end of the feint window, chances are it will be read.

    Scrubs still think feints are press q to win, so they never think about it in that aspect. It’s a matter of attitude that scrubs just don’t have.

    I uploaded a video of me pubbing yesterday, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LA1-cy36YQ

    The general skill level in that server wasn’t as high as I had hoped and I was a bit rusty, but you can definitely see that these rank 20s and rank 30s sometimes try to feint me to try to win without trying.

    They’re using the most readable attacks, sometimes do it out of range, and just generally don’t do it right. If I with 80 ping can read these feints without even expecting them, feints are not overpowered maneuvers.

    Some weapons are easier to feint than others, making them a feint crutch. Prime examples being sow stabs and claymore overall. But they’re still dealable. Albeit not as easy to handle with my ping. I can’t be as comfortably within their accelerate range as I was with others in the video, for example.


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