Attack attack attack attack



  • The game has become spammy.

    Ever since flinch times were reduced the idea of initiative and defence has gone out the window.

    As players who learned under the old system fall away and are replaced by people who started playing in the last six months I’ve begun to notice something: people aren’t evolving any more. You used to see a noob start out swinging at everything all the time and getting creamed, quickly they’d learn some defensive moves and go through a few fighting styles.

    Now they don’t develop. Constant attack is rewarded so defence is never learned, and you end up with high level players who just don’t defend, ever.

    A bit of back and forth in a fight used to be the rule, now it’s the exception. I miss it.



  • It’s pretty sad actually, most of the time I gain the initiative with a kick or other trick, and the guy will just crouch lookdown and it’s so fast and stupid I usually can’t parry it. They can also interrupt you MID COMBO and steal the initiative. I guess they just don’t even feel it when I hit them, just shrug it off instantly and swing faster than my combo out of their flinch state.



  • Stab riposte the bads, control initiative. Learn to footwork and FTP and CFTP. Hit trades aren’t a problem except in competitive, which if you’re complaining about this in competitive why aren’t you in mercs?

    The “old system” was closed beta/release Chiv when FTP and CFTP cost very little stamina and the game was at its best then. If a noob is trying to outswing me, I laugh and enjoy the easy kill.



  • It’s not always black and white like that but ok, I guess you’re just so pro you can never lose to spammy bullshit, and there is no problem whatsoever. I know how to “footwork” and FTP, don’t be so condescending. The fact you need to rely on stab ripostes because the game’s flow is off so much you can’t maintain initiative any other way proves the point.



  • HUEEEE YOU ATTACK ME I ATTACK YOU

    pretty much what the game is even on mercs, loads of time people attack into my combos and i have to ftp and waste that retarded stamina if i dont want to trade. Give me infinite stamina and i will stop complaining even about hittrades though, my reaction time is low enough, but why would i have to waste something like 1/4 of my stam because they can attack into everything and trade???



  • Dumb idea by dumb people to lower flinch times for weapons. At least TBS increased it to 0.9 instead of 0.8 as they had been suggested to shorten it to in the first place. Can’t even combo LS OH->Lookdown OH without a messer trading me.



  • The game was broken with high flinch times, and broken with lower flinch times. It’s probably safe to assume that flinch times are not the core problem.



  • The flinch times ARE the problem when it comes to hit trades during a combo.

    This could obviously be fixed with FHF or early release flinch.



  • agree but i doubt TB will consider doing such an ugly thing to their average players , the ones from the " We are the Messer LMB generation "



  • @Oy:

    It’s not always black and white like that but ok, I guess you’re just so pro you can never lose to spammy bullshit, and there is no problem whatsoever. I know how to “footwork” and FTP, don’t be so condescending. The fact you need to rely on stab ripostes because the game’s flow is off so much you can’t maintain initiative any other way proves the point.

    It’s not only stab ripostes, it depends on your weapon. GS can overhead riposte or even slash riposte to control initiative too plus a million other weapons, but stab riposte is the most common for most weapons. I can play MaA with stupid war axe and buckler and still control initiative no problem especially against noobs. This really isn’t a problem for pubs at all. It’s black white except in 1vs2+ which I agree is a huge problem due to how fast you run out of stamina, no forward chase and sprint lockout for proper dancing. The game’s flow and initiative control is completely fine against noobs. There’s not a single weapon/setup in the game I can’t control initiative against noobs in pubs.

    I don’t want to sound condescending but I also don’t want want mercs to be in live, either. Mercs would be awful for pubs and turn it into way more team based than it already is. It would be best for mercs to be for comp while live to be for pubs, so they could revert “the patch” so we could go back to 1vs5+ consistently and have tons of stamina while the good pub players can still deal with dancers np. Things like first hit flinch or early release flinch are terrible ideas for pubs and would kill the game. Every MaA or archer with .45 stabs would completely dominate so obviously they would have to rebalance all the weapons like in mercs which is no, it would just turn the game into another team based MoBA where your individual skill means nothing and you rely on others far too much. That’s great for comp, not for pubs.

    The best is to just revert “the patch.” Parry into parry was a great idea but it’s not the answer.



  • First hit flinch is so badly needed it’s not even funny. There’s a whole bunch of stuff this game needs and doesn’t need but there’s no point discussing it because none of it will happen, nor should it. Chiv 2 should be the focus - and focus on making it more like Chiv than DW, for the love of God.



  • sam saying wise words for once



  • All the time* Who are you m8



  • This is long, rambly, and I stopped making serious editing considerations an hour before I finished writing it. I write it because sufficient discussion of current mechanics may inform the creation of better mechanics in future games.

    Attacking is the favored action for stamina management. If your attack lands or is blocked, you retain your stamina. Conversely, your defence is largely a choice between risking hp loss or losing your stamina. As long as an attacker doesn’t miss (i.e. fuck up; the defender can’t force a miss, they can only realize a potential miss) then the attacker will gain an advantage from attacking. But what about the defender? The defender doesn’t actually gain anything from defending, aside from potentially some positioning if the enemy overcommits (i.e. really fucks up). They can’t even stay stable from it. So in terms of resource management, you always want to be attacking because that forces the enemy to either block or take a big risk.

    So, you’ve decided to attack because it is the most stable economic route. O.K.! Well, the enemy is constantly losing stamina and you aren’t (because you’re a pro and you don’t miss), so you can afford to throw in a feint. Regardless of whether that feint works or not, you aren’t taking a very big risk here: you’re not really expending any resources that you weren’t already getting just by the nature of making an attack, and there aren’t any weapons fast enough to take advantage of the timing window you open when you do the feint…but if the other guy blindly attacks when you do, it will negate the the effects of any potential feints. Assuming both people just decide to attack, from there the game is about positioning and timing again. So there really isn’t a reason to block 1v1, except for the very first block you may need to make to close with someone or if you accidentally start a riposte chain.

    You could fish for a riposte, but you have to run a pretty big gambit just to get to the riposte stage. Beyond that, anything but a riposte-to-stab has dubious dividends. And people basically have to maintain a very particular relative position to make a riposte-to-stab as good as it can be, so it’s usually telegraphed. Furthermore, a reverse overhand has all of the benefits of a riposte and none of the drawbacks: it hits instantly, and you don’t have to block before you do one. Plus, it can be feinted without draining your entire stamina bar, and without having to risk hp-loss before even attempting one. The stamina disparity is made much, much worse by choosing anything less than a very heavy weapon, and first-hit-flinch (despite being a good, needed mechanic) pushes the scale towards the endless attack side of things by increasing the perceived value of attacking and allowing you to gain advantage regardless of whether you risk a hit-trade. The end result is everyone flailing around with heavy weapons as a primary strategy, which makes playing an MAA iffy at best and in turn encourages more of this, since you can’t punish any of this shit without some serious mobility advantage.

    The stamina resource disparity is probably the biggest, most solid procedural argument I can offer, but I suspect the larger problem is caused by a conflux of the stamina stuff, the flinch changes, bubble changes, MAA nerfs, and whatever is causing the perceived effect of the servers falling apart. I could probably go on a whole rant about how every weapon is so similar in terms of speed that the only real effect of their different speeds is a change in block timing, rather than, say, any opening or closing of timing windows (in any stage of combat) or differences in natural initiative, but that’s not really relevant here. Bubble changes made it much more difficult to get behind someone, or even around their side since you need to trace a very large path to do so now and you can’t do that without a speed advantage or the enemy’s cooperation. This makes it harder to punish reverse-overhands, which only raises their perceived value, and also reduces the value of footwork.

    Kicks don’t really factor into the stamina system, since you have to spend an insane amount of stamina for a kick to even hope to have a meaningful effect. You have to jump-kick, because point-blank kicks are almost impossible to land and if you’re any further away than that the enemy will move out of range (while hitting you) as a matter-of-course. Then you have to do an immediate follow-up hit that gets blocked in order to meet your stamina goal, which enables a riposte that you’re probably too close to dodge. Thus you must block the riposte, and you come out ultimately in the black stamina-wise. It’s probable that if they did enough stamina damage to be meaningful it would make blocking even more pointless (aside from as a set-up to a kick), and most fights would probably start with kicking the stamina out of the opponent first. It would be better to remove the stamina cost and damage of kicks altogether.

    I suspect that the MAA may have previously acted as a control on the flailing, if only because it offered a viable gameplay alternative within which flailing was not nearly as effective. But it might also be because it’s my favorite class and its nonviability is a pet peeve, so let’s take a little end-of-post detour here. Currently, there isn’t very much reason to use an MAA sword, and their other primaries don’t benefit much from being used by an MAA as opposed to any other class. Like, you don’t see a vanguard maining a hatchet and it isn’t because they can’t dodge with it. It’s because compared to any of their main weapons it’s total dogshit in every situation, save those that are brought about by virtue of the fact that it’s a terrible weapon. The piercing dagger is excellent and outshines all of their other weapons, because their other weapons are terrible. It has a close second in the shortsword line. Anyway, they were particularly good at moving in between strikes with fast weapons to force an interrupt or punish a feint/mistimed attack, especially if they weren’t being focused. Reducing flinch times made this less effective (combined with fhf it became nearly pointless, as you’d probably get decapped for even trying), and the windup changes made it less possible. I feel I should note that when I say less possible, I don’t mean more difficult or harder. More difficult would mean that it is less likely that an individual would be capable of making the movement necessary to succeed. Less possible means that the conditions which allow one to seek success occur less frequently. Being unable to windup an attack while dodging also hurt this a lot, but that may have been a change for the best. Maybe it could be brought back if the attack wasn’t released until the very end of the dodge, regardless of when it was started?

    If I were to offer an off-the-cuff solution that isn’t just scrapping the stamina system entirely, it would be one of the following:

    1. Attacks cost stamina dependent on weapon weight, but less on a block and much less on a hit.
    1.5. Getting blocked costs more stamina than missing, which may just swing the pendulum back the other way and cause a glut of turtling.
    2. Successful blocks don’t cost stamina, but missed ones do. You still stagger if you block without stamina. Shields could remain as they are now, but would probably need to be changed some too along with kicks Hard to say beforehand…
    3. Jumps, missed hits, post-windup feints, combos, and ripostes are the only things that cost stamina. Kicking has its stamina cost and damage reduced.



  • @Jetstream:

    Who are you m8

    it me, giru



  • @SOC:

    It’s not only stab ripostes, it depends on your weapon. GS can overhead riposte or even slash riposte to control initiative too plus a million other weapons, but stab riposte is the most common for most weapons. I can play MaA with stupid war axe and buckler and still control initiative no problem especially against noobs. This really isn’t a problem for pubs at all. It’s black white except in 1vs2+ which I agree is a huge problem due to how fast you run out of stamina, no forward chase and sprint lockout for proper dancing. The game’s flow and initiative control is completely fine against noobs. There’s not a single weapon/setup in the game I can’t control initiative against noobs in pubs.

    I don’t want to sound condescending but I also don’t want want mercs to be in live, either. Mercs would be awful for pubs and turn it into way more team based than it already is. It would be best for mercs to be for comp while live to be for pubs, so they could revert “the patch” so we could go back to 1vs5+ consistently and have tons of stamina while the good pub players can still deal with dancers np. Things like first hit flinch or early release flinch are terrible ideas for pubs and would kill the game. Every MaA or archer with .45 stabs would completely dominate so obviously they would have to rebalance all the weapons like in mercs which is no, it would just turn the game into another team based MoBA where your individual skill means nothing and you rely on others far too much. That’s great for comp, not for pubs.

    The best is to just revert “the patch.” Parry into parry was a great idea but it’s not the answer.

    Team based in pubs? People just swing wildly in pubs man. There is no teamplay there and if you go there looking for it you will be mad.

    What mercs does is make a SHITLOAD of weapons more viable, either in comp play or not. I really don’t see how mercs could be bad for pubs, as your argument of teamplay makes no sense.

    Mercs would make you 1v5 easily, just as “old chiv” was. Makes individual skill far more important due the fact that range is actually good for something and many other things. Vanilla chiv has such a dumb meta its not even funny, teach noobs that the game is basically spam and luck, and in fact it is.

    Not that mercs is pure gold, I mean, we still have backswings, shitty chivalry animations and lack of mechanics like clashing.



  • clashing is like advanced chiv meta where it is more rewarding to attack than to parry lol



  • @Dusty:

    clashing is like advanced chiv meta where it is more rewarding to attack than to parry lol

    yeah but the last time you played slasher was yonks ago dusty, clashing is better implemented than before and could work very nicely if tested and developed PROPERLY in chiv

    verdict: unlikely



  • @Dusty:

    clashing is like advanced chiv meta where it is more rewarding to attack than to parry lol

    Ever since they re-introduced CFtP it’s more rewarding to attack than to parry.



  • played 5 hours with sam and demork like 2 weeks ago


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