"Noob" Suggestions.



  • Hello,

    What follows is an account of my experience in Chivalry thus far, and what I think could be improved.

    Having experience in combat/shooter games, I was doing rather good in the 1-15 bracket servers. I never fell below 2:1. This until about four hours or so of play, when I came across this rank one guy. This guy was nuts. He was doing crazy crouching, spinning stuff with a two handed sword. I was like “WTF is that?”. He couldn’t be hit, and irregardless of managing to block the initial strike, there was a second reverse strike followed by another where he brought the sword up behind him (crouched and leaned all the way back) in this overhead arch that went from the ground behind him to the ground in front of him.

    I dubbed these guys “matrix dudes”. It hearkened back to my days playing GunZ, with the people doing the butterfly and k-style.

    After that, I started running into these people regularly. It only got worse when I left the 1-15 bracket. Apparently people have made it a new level of skill out of exploits.

    From the steam page:

    "Besiege castles and raid villages in Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is a first-person slasher with a focus on multi-player. Featuring competitive online combat that seeks to capture the experience of truly being on a medieval battlefield. Inspired from the intensity and epicness of swordfighting movies such as 300, Gladiator and Braveheart, Chivalry: Medieval Warfare aims to bring that experience to the hands of a gamer.

    The game is skill-based and controls like an FPS, but instead of guns and grenades, players are given swords, shields, maces, battleaxes and longbows. Set in a fictional, yet gritty and realistic world, players will fight in fast paced online battles besieging castles, raiding medieval villages and fighting for glory in the arena with up to 32 players."

    The combat looked pretty realistic, and indeed had the feel of the movies we all know and love for the fight scenes. It was bloody, and gritty, and realistic looking. I didn’t see any of the matrix stuff on the steam videos.

    What I don’t understand is what is so bad about the skill based part of the game involving intended mechanics versus things that don’t even look humanly possible, or plausible. Why do you, the developers, feel that these exploits don’t warrant fixing?

    What is so unattractive about physics, that developers just let players run with unintended glitches in games such as these?

    So… What I think needs to be done:

    Jumping. The height of a jump should be based on distance and speed traveled prior to the jump, factoring in overall weight added to the person from equipment. Attacking in air should be a thing, except when the person blocks/parries you, you should become staggered. if they hit you while you are in the air, you should fall down. The force of a blow should be severely diminished if executed from the air. It should take some stamina.

    Crouching. It’s basically doing a squat. Squats are an exercise. The animation for going down into a crouch, and standing up from a crouch should take longer. Being struck (whether you block it or not) should throw you off balance. It should take some stamina.

    Movement and ‘look’ speed. First and foremost, any ability to alter these setting per user should be removed. Movement speed needs to be severely reduced for strafing and back pedalling. Look speed needs to be reduced, with more pronounced motion blur when looking around quickly. Stagger/fall down needs to be increased when struck while moving in an off balanced manner. If you are backpedalling fast, but that guy with the maul still manages to hit you, you should go to the ground.

    Stagger needs to be enhanced in general. When someone is hit full force in the chest with a axe, regardless of what armor they are wearing, they should be staggered, and unable to finish that stupid overhead swing they were trying to do. Even if a weapon doesn’t penetrate a piece of armor, the force is still applied to that area, which causes blunt force trauma. Force doesn’t just dissipate because the object didn’t penetrate the other, it radiates through the object.

    Dodging. It should be available for all classes; shift double tap a/s/d, shift double tap w to lunge. The speed and distance that you can dodge is dependent upon how heavy your load out is. Speaking of which:

    Why not get rid of classes all together and make armor a part of load out. The base character, stat wise, is the man-at-arm/archer in regards to speed and survivability. As you add more and more equipment onto him, you can fill the roles of knight/vanguard/ect.

    Piecemeal Armor would give even more customization and unlockable possibilities.

    I stand firmly on the fact that life isn’t fair, but physics prevail. Balanced classes (which we don’t have anyways) aren’t needed so long as the physics and mechanics are up to par.

    This will allow people to unlock armor and weapons of various sorts. Equip their character how they want. If you want to be a guy in padded armor with a steel nose helm with a spear, so be it. You’ll be quick, have reach, and be able to dodge well. If you want to be a human tank, dip yourself in steel and get a big shield and longsword for that classic knight look.

    Weapons grips. Weapons should have multiple grip styles for versatility, that affect their stats. For example, the spear held in two hands would promote greater overall damage, but importantly it makes slashing with it viable. while a spear held in one hand allows you to have a shield in the other, but it makes slashing with the spear almost useless except on the lightest armored people. The zweihander could have the standard two handed grip on the hilt, or a “half sword” grip at the ricasso. The former would allow strong sweeping attacks, but diminish the thrust, while the latter would turn it into a veritable short spear with a surprisingly strong thrust.

    Damage. Each weapon should have variable damage modifiers against each hit location for each type of armor, factoring in the way it’s held. Weapons should have optimal travel distance for full force. A two handed sword needs to have a longer distance to accelerate to actually allow it’s mass to reach optimal velocity for full damage capability, so the person has to be standing farther away. A person thrusting a dagger can be closer in to someone because their weapon reaches optimal velocity quicker.

    Renown. A scale of honor to dishonor. You earn honor by killing someone, if all the damage done to them was done by only you. You earn honor by aiding/completing objectives. You earn honor by saving allies from death. Dishonor is gained by killing someone from behind while they are engaged with someone else (Kill steal). You gain (lots of) dishonor by killing or maiming allies. Renown plays a role in the type and quality of gear available to you. Renown thresholds can be set on servers, so if you try to join a server and your renown isn’t high enough you get a message saying “You are to dishonorable for this field of battle” or the like. Or maybe a renown threshold that forces each team to be balanced based on renown. So you might get that super dishonorable guy on your team to balance things out. Players with high renown gain and radiate renown bonuses. Not game changing buffs, but a small reward for being a good sportsman. A small hp/stam regen. Slightly faster attack speed. Stuff like that. It’s inspirations/moral boosting type stuff. The same could be said for the dudes with really low renown. These guys are like “The Mountain” from A Song of Ice and Fire. They are so feared and reviled they their appearance on the field makes their enemeis afraid. People know this guy is willing to cut down ten of his own men to get to them. This would be especially good when coupled with a system in which you had bots on your team, they’d likely follow and take orders from the one with the most renown, or renown would dictate how many of those bots follow you. It could also affect enemy bot ai, as in they’d be less likely to attack you one on one (with high renown), but might be more inclined if they had a couple other dudes with them.

    All I can think of right now… I just think this game could be so much cooler without the requirement of having to have your little digital dude do the matrix or have episodic seizures. People who practice it, or wish to learn it might disagree or call me a noob or what have you, but that sort of thinking drives players away. I imagine there are a great amount of people who just have no desire to learn how to do these cheesy moves that break the epic, immersive feeling of Braveheart, Gladiator, and all the awesome pre-gunpowder action movies.

    I bet that those folks who spent all that time learning those uber leet moves will still be better than casual-competitive players with no drive to learn them. It’ll just make it an even playing field, as opposed to the “can” and “cannot” 's. If it’s not a part of the main steam page, or even the feature lists on your website…If such an important mechanic isn’t gone over in the tutorial… And if it doesn’t mesh in with the spirit or aesthetic of the game, then it can’t be anything else but a glitch or exploit.

    cheers,
    Michael



  • Basically you want an entirely new/different game.



  • @LonelyVagabond:

    Dodging. It should be available for all classes; shift double tap a/s/d, shift double tap w to lunge. The speed and distance that you can dodge is dependent upon how heavy your load out is.

    You say multiple times you want physics and realism, but then you want all classes to be able to teleport?

    @LonelyVagabond:

    Crouching. It’s basically doing a squat. Squats are an exercise. The animation for going down into a crouch, and standing up from a crouch should take longer. Being struck (whether you block it or not) should throw you off balance. It should take some stamina.

    While you basically want the whole game reworked, this is a very minor change I think could improve the gameplay a little - blocking (especially in duels) is too easy with players crouching and looking up all the time. I think crouched player at least shouldn’t be able to riposte.



  • Sounds like you’re looking for a medieval combat simulator. Maybe you should try War of the Roses.
    In my opinion gameplay is much more important than realism, so I don’t agree with most of your suggestions.
    Removing of classes and addition of customization would be very nice though, has been proposed several times too I think.

    @Renown: Lol, just imagine all those honorable Heavy XBow Archers and Maul Knights.



  • Yeah these multiplayer combat simulators all failed.

    Essentially this guy wants to make the game a who hits the other guy first wins game. And if you do literally anything other than dodge you fall over.

    All in all a massively frustrating game. A lot of this guys “realism” Stems from the fact he thinks medieval armour weighs about 10 tons.

    His renown and no classes suggestions are two of the main features of Bushido: legend of the samurai. You remeber that mod for chivalry called bushido: feudal warfare? Same thing. Standalone game now.



  • There’s these things called Game Maker, UDK, Unity, etc. Perhaps you’d like to give it a go.



  • I wouldn’t be to harsh on the op tbh, its nice to see new players more interested in the game then just lmb dancing.
    Esp those noobs fond of simply killing anything with a pulse regardless of side, it if moves hit it hehe. It reminds one
    of that time Data started singing life forms . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWBmaKk32fE
    Lets sing about the noob forms, you first mr dudeface



  • You dubbed it matrix which it has been called for a long time, hardly believe you just graduated from noob servers.

    Suggesting everyone can teleport/dodge obviously dumb.

    Some good ideas - but then you are suggesting changes that would take forever to make in the old engine and old code, hopefully there will be a chivarly 2 which is much more in depth - but yet is balanced - hard to achieve without bugs and does it really make a much better game?

    Wut why am I responding to a post that is suggesting radical changes/coding to an end of life game…



  • Hello,

    I do not understand what is meant by teleportation. But moving out of the way, or dodging attacks, is a viable tactic. Sometimes it is preferable to parrying or blocking due to the fact you cause your enemy to overextend themselves. I suggested that everyone be able to dodge because of the fact that getting out of the way of an attack is not only instinct but a shared physical ability of all people. That only one class can use it is silly.

    All in all a massively frustrating game. A lot of this guys “realism” Stems from the fact he thinks medieval armour weighs about 10 tons.

    I don’t understand where you get that from considering I asked for MORE movement options for knights. . . My whole kit in MCRT weighed more than most full plate harness’ which averaged around sixty pounds for the Italian stuff and Ninety for the Gothic. Obviously you have to account for the bullet tested armors when armor makers were attempting to make up for the piercing capabilities of early firearms - those were likely heavier than the region average. Most complete maille suits weighed more than the regional average for plate harnesses.

    I honestly think you were talking out of your butt, man. Negative (non constructive) input in line with the others and the winning side make you superior. It’s okay.

    Now. . .

    The implementation doesn’t matter, what I was getting at was getting rid of all the weird stuff people do in favor of making the combat actually feel like the movies. SCA could never give me that feeling. The blows didn’t hurt enough, and people were to whiny. MCMAP was pretty in line with my suggestions, being that you’re trying to stay away from the pointy object. You only block/parry when you have to, otherwise the best option is to let them over extend themselves and take the inside of the wrist; if they aren’t confident a crossed wrist lock to leg sweep, and pin could keep you from having to kill someone with your blade.

    Sadly, I’m unable to do much physically after I got back. So video games are kinda it. War of the Roses kinda sucks…Bad. This game would be awesome if there were serious repercussions to harming allies and such. If the combat -felt- realistic (intuitive and visually immersive) this would be -the- game of this genre. That was all I was trying to do with my post- open dialog about how the game could be improved so people didn’t feel like they had to take advantage of broken mechanics that ruin the thrill and immersion of the game.

    I didn’t mean to offend anyone, I was truly not trolling or trying to rehash old subjects; everything I’d seen on the topic appeared to be more or less raging with no actual thought put into how they thought it could be fixed. Of course responses to said posts were virtual laughs and slaps to the face, rather than empathy for a fellow player seriously frustrated. . . I suppose that is irrelevant. Take the topic where you want, leave it to get buried, I tried to be constructive. That is all I can do.

    Have a good one, guys.

    Cheers,
    Michael



  • inb4 Retsnom LOLS rant.

    It’s sad, you spent so much time writing something laughable.



  • @LonelyVagabond:

    Hello,

    I do not understand what is meant by teleportation. But moving out of the way, or dodging attacks, is a viable tactic. Sometimes it is preferable to parrying or blocking due to the fact you cause your enemy to overextend themselves. I suggested that everyone be able to dodge because of the fact that getting out of the way of an attack is not only instinct but a shared physical ability of all people. That only one class can use it is silly.

    I don’t understand where you get that from considering I asked for MORE movement options for knights. . . My whole kit in MCRT weighed more than most full plate harness’ which averaged around sixty pounds for the Italian stuff and Ninety for the Gothic. Obviously you have to account for the bullet tested armors when armor makers were attempting to make up for the piercing capabilities of early firearms - those were likely heavier than the region average. Most complete maille suits weighed more than the regional average for plate harnesses.

    I honestly think you were talking out of your butt, man. Negative (non constructive) input in line with the others and the winning side make you superior. It’s okay.

    Now. . .

    The implementation doesn’t matter, what I was getting at was getting rid of all the weird stuff people do in favor of making the combat actually feel like the movies. SCA could never give me that feeling. The blows didn’t hurt enough, and people were to whiny. MCMAP was pretty in line with my suggestions, being that you’re trying to stay away from the pointy object. You only block/parry when you have to, otherwise the best option is to let them over extend themselves and take the inside of the wrist; if they aren’t confident a crossed wrist lock to leg sweep, and pin could keep you from having to kill someone with your blade.

    Sadly, I’m unable to do much physically after I got back. So video games are kinda it. War of the Roses kinda sucks…Bad. This game would be awesome if there were serious repercussions to harming allies and such. If the combat -felt- realistic (intuitive and visually immersive) this would be -the- game of this genre. That was all I was trying to do with my post- open dialog about how the game could be improved so people didn’t feel like they had to take advantage of broken mechanics that ruin the thrill and immersion of the game.

    I didn’t mean to offend anyone, I was truly not trolling or trying to rehash old subjects; everything I’d seen on the topic appeared to be more or less raging with no actual thought put into how they thought it could be fixed. Of course responses to said posts were virtual laughs and slaps to the face, rather than empathy for a fellow player seriously frustrated. . . I suppose that is irrelevant. Take the topic where you want, leave it to get buried, I tried to be constructive. That is all I can do.

    Have a good one, guys.

    Cheers,
    Michael

    you can be constructive aall you won’t. Doesn’t mean anyone would like these suggestions.

    As we have said games that have followed most of your suggestions have failed.

    Go put on a suit of armour in reality. You’ll find that it isn’t as hard as you think. And real Knights trained all the time with all that armpur on. Buff dudes.

    Restricting jumping and giving penalties to crouching just doesn’t make any sense at all in a game. Literally changes just to annoy people.

    You also want people to be staggered more often. Which would change everything up massivly. Who hits first wins.

    Your damage chanhes are already in deadliest warrior. Making the game rather random even though all the values are constant.



  • Well I wouldn’t be so concerned about how Chivalry is or how you want it to be… it’s a kludgy old beast moving in on 3 years old. It’s not going to change much. However, there are a handful of promising looking melee games in development right now (and TB’s mystery UE4 project which may or may not be in that category), so there’s a good chance you find something that has a more polished approach to combat in the near future.



  • “Matrix” dudes are really stupid OP, you got that right. May Slasher save us all.



  • I have always said remove the drag abusing shit, looks stupid, makes no sense and is fucking annoying.



  • I think you’re going to have to make an entirely new game, mate.



  • @LonelyVagabond:

    Sadly, I’m unable to do much physically after I got back. So video games are kinda it.

    Did you get injured or something?



  • I could see (and like) a system where players customize their own character based on a slightly abstract point system that takes both price of equipment and training required into account.

    That way you can still not have a crossbow and a knightly armor at the same time, because both pieces of equipment were extremely pricey during medieval times.

    Bow on the other hand might be relatively cheap, but requires extensive training to use properly.

    With this system, you could choose to take only light armor and a single weapon, but “buy” that weapon as made of higher quality steel, offering more damage/penetration/whatever other characteristics. (after all, metalwork could indeed vary quite a lot in quality; with some blades that would snap after a few strong blows, while others could withstand almost anything)

    Or you could choose to grab a plate armor (much lighter than most people think, as people have mentioned here and there in this topic), a halberd, a longsword and a shield. But that versatility would come at the “cost” of lower quality for each of these items.

    Because, yeah, a weight-based customization system feels doomed to fail if you care even a bit about realism. Contrary to popular opinion, fully armored knights could sprint and tumble all they wanted, all day long.
    That’s why there was no reason to have “light” (Boiled leather?) armor instead of “heavy” armor if you could afford the latter.
    Yet I’m very much in favor of a customization system. Hopefully for Chivalry 2…. :o

    EDIT: More theorycrafting.

    With this system I’m thinking of, you could grab a low draw strength bow and a longsword. If you wanted a bow with more draw strength, like what a typical English Longbow has, you would spend more points in that, and end up having only enough to “buy”… a shortsword or the like. :P

    Considering the fact that both price and especially training time are abstracted within the points, you could maybe get to choose your character’s strength (power of attacks), stamina, speed and whatever else you can think about with them.



  • I think the best build would always be maximum movement speed with a fast, hard hitting weapon. In other words, a Man at Arms.



  • From what I can tell, Man at arms without the dodge is far, far from being as dangerous as one with dodge.



  • @Andimar:

    From what I can tell, Man at arms without the dodge is far, far from being as dangerous as one with dodge.

    I wouldn’t say that, their movement speed is so fast you can dodge with footwork and run in and out of your effective range easily. PLUS you have a quarterstaff!


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