Overhaul for long range melee weapons



  • Here is just a simple opinion from my side, that I believe would make the two-handed spears, bardice and other weapons that has a wood shaft way more balanced or realistic.

    Tweaks
    What if the weapons mentioned above, were given a special type of “Swing trace”, that would have like two of them. One along the wooden shaft, and the last one at the metal part, thus making the need for the player to put distance to account IF only the metal part of the weapon would cause most damage, and the wooden part slightly decreases one.

    Disdavantages
    By doing so would really make it hard to play with a bardice, spear and ect… Perhaps it would cause most to just swap over to two-handed sword instead, but what if there was a additional damage added, IF you hit the opponent with the metal part of the weapon, thus not making it useless.

    Problems
    Thus by adding two different swing tracers, could by any chance catch the opponent inbetween the first and the second, thus taking two hits. So perhaps some coding would be required there!

    Example

    Red tracer is the wooden shaft part of the weapon.
    Blue tracer is the metal part.

    Please post your opinions here about it !



  • It wouldn’t nerf it. I believe it would make it perfect :-P

    It might draw average players away, but once a professional suddenly shows up and masters with the weapon, the other players would follow along. There’s been classes conisdered underpowered in AOC, till someone figured how to play it quite well.



  • It would make the sword a more of a preferred weapon, without having to put as much distance between you and your opponent. But I totally support this idea, it would make the game more realistic and challenging in that stand point. It would also stop new players playing vanguard all of the time and then complaining about that they are overpowered. I really hope they implement this into the game. :)



  • I also thought about this, it’s true that weapons with clear shafts and heads would be more realistic, you can also see the problem with them. In reality a soldier could gage the distance between himself and his enemy and attack accordingly to land a hit, the weapon was great at making the enemy think twice before attacking your archers/other ranged troops and served greatly to deter horsemen from attempting to charge into your ranks with impunity. This wouldn’t really be possible in a game where you’d have a fixed range and a dead zone inside of it, forcing a person with one of these weapons to put far more effort into a battle than his enemy. Users of elongated weapons would also carry sword with them because they knew there was a good chance that if the enemy was able to bridge the gap they had created they would need to fall back instantly to something that wouldn’t put them at a disadvantage. You’d need to make these weapons much more effective if you where going to stick a dead zone between the focal point of the weapon and the blade.

    What you’re suggesting wouldn’t really work here simply because combat is so fast and brutal that as soon as an enemy entered your dead zone they would have a chance to chop you to uniformly sized bits and move onto your allies quicker than you’d realise you needed to change weapon, change weapon and get gather your senses and mount a comeback. This wouldn’t make the pole weapons more attractive, it would only serve to push people away from them further. Why use a weapon that forces you to be accurate with range, swap weapons and generally work even harder for your kills, wouldn’t it be more realistic to expect people to simply pick up the two handed swords more readily?

    I’m not a great advocate of the current system but other ones would be just as problematic.

    (These where just some rough ideas I had while reading your thread, nice to see another gentleman putting some thought into the weapons and mechanics of the game and not just yelling “lol l2p” at someone at the top of the leader boards simply because they raise this, or a similar, objection about the game. Looking forward to hearing some other ideas or answers to the problems I would have with the idea.)



  • I mainly use stab anyways. It wouldn’t matter much to me.



  • @frozenknife:

    I mainly use stab anyways. It wouldn’t matter much to me.

    Stabbing does make a lot more sense when using say, a spear. But swinging it is still damaging, and it’s easier to hit someone with.



  • @Jake:

    @frozenknife:

    I mainly use stab anyways. It wouldn’t matter much to me.

    Stabbing does make a lot more sense when using say, a spear. But swinging it is still damaging, and it’s easier to hit someone with.

    It is easier to hit your allies too. Stabbing is easier to hit for me even, i find it much more useful in almost any case when playing as a vanguard with halberd.



  • @frozenknife:

    It is easier to hit your allies too. Stabbing is easier to hit for me even, i find it much more useful in almost any case when playing as a vanguard with halberd.

    I dont play vanguard often, I usually play MaA. I see what you mean though, stabbing doesn’t have much of a chance in hitting a teammate, and it’s faster. But this topic is about swinging it, not stabbing. If they implement wolfys idea into the game, I’ll probably do more sweeping attacks, because it would be more of a challenge at keeping them the perfect distance to do maximum damage.



  • The player is never out of advantage aslong as they pretty much have the stab to attack with, if the enemy gets too close. This idea was meant to make polearms & spear users more careful about swinging, unless they got them at the dead-zone, or they decide to stab. What I basically mean, is that if you hit them with the wooden part, then you will deal some damage to your opponent, but what if there was something that decided that IF you by any chance should manage to hit them accuratly with the tip, then It should be given more damage to the attack. This would heavily decrease the amount of slash combo attacks, perhaps they will use polearms to their real purpose then, which is stabbing I believe, But I do see your point, that this may be a little bit too hard to use, so thus other weapons like two-handed swords would be prefered instead.



  • I still think it’s great idea, vanguards will stop flailing around so much, and fight like they should. And I’m pretty sure most of the new vanguards are just playing them because theyre easy, when they start developing skill, they’ll probably agree with this idea, that or switch to two hand swords because those are easier :P



  • This would’ve been a good mechanic if the game was developed with it in mind. Now, however, I feel like it’s too late to implement something like this - it would take a long time and would mess up game balance something awful.

    Maybe Chivalry 2 will have more realistic weapon mechanics like this ;)



  • This is a pretty unnecessary realism.



  • @frozenknife:

    This is a pretty unnecessary realism.

    agree.

    there is no need for that.



  • @SlyGoat:

    frozenknife wrote:

    Oh dear, a little bit too early to think about that, the game just got out !



  • @wildwulfy:

    @SlyGoat:

    frozenknife wrote:

    Oh dear, a little bit too early to think about that, the game just got out !

    AoC was around for a while now. Also if we are adding this, how can a vertical parry stop a thrusting weapon?



  • There have been quite a few forum posts suggesting something like this plan, and admittedly there is merit to the idea.

    It is my personal opinion however that making this happen would require a lot of tricky coding and workarounds, adds unnecessary complexion to a fast and visceral game, and would cause all sorts of balance issues, particularly if you went with the increased damage for hitting with the metal part. You just know that some players would get that perfect sweet spot and be chopping heads left and right.

    Also, I play vanguard a LOT. Stabbing is the actual use for the halberd and billhook, swinging is just for large groups of people and to deter lone attackers from trying to cut around side of you.

    The bardiche does considerably more damage when swinging compared to poking. The spear does considerably less damage while swinging compared to stabbing.

    All in all, in practice, its a lot of work for very little gain and very little change in how the good spear/poleaxe vanguards are actually playing the game. Stabs. Lots of em. Throw in overheads if you’re using a halberd and have an opening. Side swings are risky, slow, easily blocked, and generally do less damage.



  • Some thoughts:

    • Suggestion doesn’t take into account changing your grip on the weapon, moving it forward/backward etc to get good range
    • We don’t have 3d vision (most don’t) and can’t estimate distance as well as real life
    • This would affect all melee weapons, even swords
    • Should/would be offset by dramatically increased thrusting damaged if two players are charging each other (momentum would be most effectively transferred into damage by a polearm (?).
    • Shouldn’t thrusts with long weapons be quite difficult to block without a shield?


  • My main problem with this is that it seems a bit too easy for people to close distance on this game… particularly with the Man at Arms class.

    If a Man at Arms dodges in close, a vanguard with a polearm would be almost defenseless, or would at least have its combat effectiveness nearly halved.

    Perhaps if the Kick mechanic was refined it would be passable, but like SlyGoat said, it might be a bit too late (or too early) for such a massive overhaul to take place. Maybe at a later stage when the more glaring issues have been resolved something like this could be tried.



  • The melee system needs 3 major changes :

    • as per OP’s suggestion, weapon hits need to distinguish whether the hit was made with an effective portion of the weapon.
    • angular velocity needs to be a major contributing factor in the damage calculator. (the angular velocity at the tip of a sword is far higher than half way along the blade, and far more again than near the hilt)
      -swing/stab speed (and thus angular velocity & damage) needs to scale through the animations, as hitting at the start or very end of a swing/stab should do far less damage.

    These 3 changes will completely rebalance all weapons, not just the long range ones, and will introduce a whole new level of depth and skill.


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