Drags...but why?



  • I don’t understand what they add to the game Torn Banner. In a fast paced action combat game, it literally slows the game down. I am extremely excited for the rest of the game and I can’t wait to see magic in action, but I’m disappointed in this decision. I don’t see a justifiable reason for them other than “they raise the skillcap” but you can add any arbitrary mechanic to raise a skillcap. In reality the skillcap in previous TB games has been high enough, I doubt with the addition of a magical layer that the cap needs raised further. /rant

    If it’s too late to put a cap on the turning limit or force the swing to come out at a certain minimum speed, or fix it at all then so be it. I’ll probably just end up not putting AS MANY (although still a considerable amount) hours in to the game. I guess I should technically thank you as I won’t waste as much of my life…but at the same time…why can’t you let me feed the addiction to its fullest ya know ;)?

    <3 a guy who has put too many hours into Torn Banner games.



  • After having played chivalry, melee in other games bores me, that is mostly due to real time swings not existing. And who knows, we might not drag as much when we can shoot fireballs either way.



  • @Xylvion I’m sure fireballs are really going to change the dynamic, I agree completely. My question is just why are drags even necessary? I’m fairly certain magical abilities would easily supplement them and then some.

    The real time swings thing…well I mean those swings aren’t in “real” time as they’re entirely unrealistic, but the ability to manipulate a swing could just be kept to the direction and time of release rather than direction, time of release, and length of release time. I am not appealing to realism here though as this game clearly doesn’t care about that. From a solely gameplay perspective why would you slow it down to allow for dragging instead of using a more “blade symphony” type approach that speeds it up?

    Either way I’m going to buy and play the game I’m just asking.



  • @Helrin2 layers of depth in the combat. Exchanging parrys and reposts is fun and all but what happens when the bigger boys can read feints and do all of that just fine (these kinds of people do exist and I’m also not claiming to be one of them) then they will need more ways to fuck with their opponent. Breaking that rhythm of sword clashing and binding is what can win duels. It allows for a higher skill cap as someone pointed out earlier because it takes just as much skill to drag that it does to block a decent slash or overhead drag.

    Is it realistic? No… accelerated swings are theoretically realistic but delayed swings aren’t realistic but in my opinion they add more to the combat system and they are part of what makes this game great.

    Will TB get rid of them? Probably not, if Mirage has a similar combat system with the tracers, real time strikes and weapon paths then dragging will still probably be possible. If they did get rid of them then I don’t think it would be a good idea to get rid of the game mechanics concept altogether. Why not have longer windup for faster swings or shorter windups for slower swings. It would have the same goal as dragging and same end result but achieved in a different way.



  • @Helrin2 Real time as in ‘you can change them in real time’ aka delay, accelerate, change direction because your enemy moves etc.

    If you think chivalry is a slowed down game, you should have no probles reacting to everything everyone throws at you. For me it’s a fast paced experience where I have to think on my feet, especially while fighting multiple opponents. Thanks to chivalry I can’t play FPS games, due to them being mostly luck based, I can’t play melee games, wether it be skyrim or something else, they’re just not offering the same amount of maneuverability. Sure, delayed strikes aren’t realistic, but neither is getting hit in the leg by a messer and being able to run away from the opponent. Also arcane will involve magic, which isn’t realistic either. Sure I understand from an immersion perspective, but even so, you can change the direction of your attacks, feint with your body, etc; chivalry is the only released game that requires some actual skill to play it, hence why so many people quit. Chivalry has its fair share of problems especially regarding netcode, so it’s not optimal, but there’s no other game like it, why? Because of the real time swing system, or ‘drags’ as it’s more commonly refered to.



  • Calm down. We haven’t even played the game yet. For all we know, they could be saying drags are there as a platitude. The animations and swing speeds might not even be conducive to dragging. That being said, unless they have physics based swing damage like Mount and Blade, dragging WILL be in the game. It’s literally UNAVOIDABLE with freeform swing animations.

    That being said, I personally hope they are. Dragging adds alot to the game. If drags weren’t a thing in Chivalry, the game would be nothing but feints and footwork.



  • I think its impossible to say what Mirage will do for combat until you can test it.

    As for drags - they are essential to distinguish combat from a boring click to attack click to parry.

    Drags are really not difficult to counter (but I will admit they catch me out sometimes), the only issue is that only a smaller percentage of players use them effectively (overhead drag take a slow weapon and look to the sky) so yes it does mess some people up.

    It is easily countered once you

    • understand the timings of a particular weapons
    • determine the body motion of the player

    I cheat if I want to do well and take a shield which eliminates most of the variables.

    Drags are not that bad, feints are far worse and yet I have encountered a few high rank players who can read almost all feints (except the point blank feints with a fast weapon).

    So lets not make a judgement yet,. What distinguishes CMW from other games is the depth of combat, lets not turn it into a dumb tab and click MMORPG.



  • Drags are essential, they are part of what gave chivalry an innovative and fluid combat feel. However I wouldn’t mind experimenting with the idea of making drags deal less damage.



  • @BandOfTheHawk said:

    Drags are essential, they are part of what gave chivalry an innovative and fluid combat feel. However I wouldn’t mind experimenting with the idea of making drags deal less damage.

    Would make sense if they did less damage but we’re more effective. Not doing as much damage makes them not as useful. They’d have to be balanced somehow


  • Global Moderator

    Without drags it would be multiplayer skyrim.



  • @lemonater47 said:

    Without drags it would be multiplayer skyrim.

    Lol true



  • @AK I don’t disagree at all that drags add depth to the basic parry -> riposte system. I think Torn Banner should get creative and find alternative methods to them though. Obviously I’m speculating about how important melee combat will even be, but if it’s anything like Chivalry drags are most of the game.

    My though it is, they have magic at their disposal, so why not get rid of drags and supplement it with some awesome magical way to defeat parries? I.E. Break a parry with a well timed magical push, or disarm your opponent etc. There’s a ton of ways to add spice without simple character model manipulation and swing delay. Other fighting games ( although they’re usually of vary different genres) have many ways around the simple system so it can obviously be done.

    At the end of the day, we don’t know how important drags are going to really be, but it’s a fear I have that they will take over the melee meta as they do in CMW.

    Here’s to the hopes of a beautiful game.



  • @BandOfTheHawk That’s already been done. Chivalry: Deadliest Warrior (which most MW players despise) made drags deal less damage. It kind of fixes the problem, but then it opens up new problems such as certain weapons deal tons of drag damage while others do not and thus the effectiveness of each weapon is based on their tracer performance rather than intended use. But I digress.



  • @ToLazy4Name My argument isn’t for Chivalry, and I don’t think I’m upset about it… OR AM I?!

    Jk.

    I am unsure as to why free form swings are always regarded as having drags made unavoidable. If the swing is forced to come out a certain speed and your character isn’t breaking his spinal cord to animation manipulate, the swing should be near the same everytime should it not? Timing and aim will matter, but aside from that…

    Could be wrong, please explain if I am.

    Cheers.



  • @ToLazy4Name I am simply saying make some alternative methods to break a parry instead of a drag. I don’t want to simplify the game at all.

    Everything you’ve stated is opinion really. “Drags are not that bad,” is a statement that does not hold true in all scenarios.

    Anyways yes obviously I am simply speculating. I figured it would be better to voice my opinion about changing what is a core melee mechanic now than before the beta actually starts, and the devs have other priorities.



  • What I mean is that if the swings are freeform, you literally CANNOT avoid drags. Even if they’re not at all effective due to the speed of the swings or whatever, they’ll still be there because that’s simply how the system works. Your swing is freeform, thus you can control it.

    If you have any ideas on what would replace the purpose of dragging, speak up. As it stands, simply removing them will lower the skill ceiling (In Chivalry, I cannot personally speak for Mirage but I imagine the same still applies).


  • Developer

    Dragging is a core part of the melee system, even limiting it to 15% higher then Chivalry feels extremely restrictive. Removing it is simply not an option as it’s the very foundation of the melee system.

    I do agree that there needs to be other ways to get around parries and dragging doesn’t necessarily have to play as big of a part in it, we’re not locked down on the mechanics of this yet in Mirage so I can’t say much about it but we’re pretty much at the same level as Chivalry right now.

    The only way we would ever reduce the effectiveness of them to get around parries is if we find something better but that wouldn’t come with limiting the dragging potential only the effectiveness against a parry.

    The DW way punished drags in the wrong way as well, not doing that again.



  • I haven’t played DW in forever. I would have to say no penalty. But if you want nerf ideas, when you drag you can be interrupted for a greater length of time, you take more damage while dragging past a certain point and finally if you drag to long you won’t even swing or your swing will do no damage. The last part would allow the skill ceiling to remain or even increase it. But the game is harsh enough learning curve :feelsgood:



  • Glad to see you guys are embracing Chiv’s mechanics, Vesros. As someone who was skeptical about Mirage, i’ve thus far been pleasantly surprised by how you guys are describing it.

    Looking forward to the beta.


  • Mod

    Never remove drags.
    It’s what make it. “Drags … Thank the heavens!!!”