First Test Morning (and ongoing feedback)



  • I guess there is a mix of first impressions and trial and testing. I just downloaded this morning started playing around against bots in a single room alt text without even reading anything at all, purely on my CMW experience


    USER INTERFACE

    General

    1. I noticed alt tabbing back to the game I could no longer using my mouse to move the camera - I had to click a mouse button before the camera would function

    Melee

    1. Its a little counter intuitive that the Taurant can right click to block a magical attack - I didnt realize (or remember from general forum) - it was only after playing the Vigilist blocking with my shield that I went back and tried it with the Taurant
    2. Blocking magical attacks with little penalty certainly makes the alechemancers default attack very weak

    Melee Health
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    1. I couldnt tell how much health I had, I had to keep glancing at the health bar to see if I was in trouble or not
    2. Regenerating health while walking seemed a little slow - this was highlighted by the fact there are numbers on the health bar. The numbers are useful for testing but I wouldnt have them in the final game as they are too distracting
    3. Fighting there were no indicators as to how much damage your opponent had sustained
    4. Sometimes I would hit a target, perhaps it killed him but then my entire screen would spatter with blood, I would then panic thinking I was about to die, look at my health bar - then see actually I was ok. I’m guessing it was my enemies blood from a headshot but I dont want it on the screen - have it as droplets in the air or something else, reserve screen blood to indicate you are in trouble like Tomb Raider (and dont obscure the center of the screen)

    Ability Buttons
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    1. I want to rebind those as soon as I can with to some key held down + LMB, Scroll Up, Scroll Down
    • No indicator as to when I could execute them - if I am attacking with melee and the cooldown had finished I ended up mashing them until they executed.
    • If I am in windup or release they need to be faded slightly so I know they are not available
    • I assume the cool down will change from numbers to a graphical indicator later as numbers break immersion
    1. When you go the loadout screen and wave your mouse over the buttons there is no popup. You have to first click somewhere on the loadout screen - then you have hover over the buttons to see the description
    • The popup describing the loadout should be slightly to the right so when selecting E or F it doesnt show part of the orange circle of the ability to the left
    1. On the loadout screen I wasnt sure what the +,>>> and circles were for

    TAURANT
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    So starting with the Taurant (which I think most people will) as the melee class the first 3 things I thought to myself
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    1. Kill/kill spree notifications distracted me from the battle, especially as they were smack in the middle of my screen.
    2. I couldnt tell what the blue (I assumed mana) bar was for. As testing continued I noticed I could do unlimited combos so then thought perhaps it is stamina that wasnt working
    3. And picking up blue balls on the ground didnt seem to help Taurant (and seems gimmiky)

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    1. Viewing a player showing the name over their head and down below seemed redundant (preferthe second more subtle one)
    2. Throwing my balls around was tricky to figure out how to make them do damage.
    • Initially it would appear to just pass through the player as if it had no substance and didnt appear to do any damage.
    • I actually spent a bunch of time trying to land the ball next to a bot, after hitting it dead on I noticed a small pool of blood at the feet and a small pushback, so then it dawned on me that I was not actually throwing a land mine that explodes after a period of time…rather I was supposed to be throwing it directly (and then remembered in the menu it was a boulder not a bomb).
    • I found the boulder appearing above my target very distracting and I found it hard to focus on tracking where my target was running. In 3rd person it would completely obscure my target.
    • In general they seemed a little bouncy as if they didnt have any real mass
    1. Whirlwind,
    • There seemed to be something disorientating that the windup rotates in one direction, and then the animation executes in the other direction.
    • It didnt seem to have too much range and seemed to leave you wide open and you have lost track of everything
    • Overall it was much more effective to combo attacks that use it as a special ability
    • 3rd person whirlwind has a huge advantage because its doesnt seem your camera around so you remain in control
    1. Went I was hit by the alchemancer a red arrow appeared on the screen, I wasnt sure why it was there nor what the direction of the arrow signified

    ALCHEMANCER
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    1. Holding down right click makes me sprout wings - no idea what was going on there

    Draggable

    1. Terrible name for a spell and looks like an egg not a phoenix - perhaps call it a phoenix once it looks like one
    2. No idea how to control it after launch
    3. Floats around like in space doesnt seem to do anything at this point apart from fizzle
    4. Couldnt hit even a bot with it

    Big Blast

    1. Loses trajectory fairly quickly
    2. Similar to the Taurant boulder it is confusing having it appear above the center of the screen making you unsure where it was actually going to go. Perhaps if it was centred but semi transparent so you stayed focus on your target and it became opaque after it was launched

    Teleport

    1. If there was some visual indicator of where you were going to land that would help a lot

    VPYRESS
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    Noticed at one point I gained a few extra health points (resulting in yellow health bar) not sure how that was achieved

    Dash

    1. I dont really like the fact I leap up - seems like I would expect for my associated melee attack to miss my opponents
    2. If I am moving to the right and use it - the initial leap is to the right - but then I completely change direction and go forward
    3. I could kill bots one after another with melee but the ability actually didnt enhance my battle

    Shuriken

    1. The numbers make it very confusing after having played the Taurant and used to seeing the numbers indicating the cooldown seconds - now these numbers mean the number of shurikens I have AND they mean the cooldown
    2. I really wouldnt expect a shuriken to bounce off walls

    Phase

    1. I felt phase forward was often a probem - it threw me further into the melee.
    2. If someone is about to cast a spell at me I couldnt use it in time to actually make it effective enough to actual avoid damage since it is too slow. If they use it while I’m running away I cant hear their spell starting up to actually use it that way. I guess its really just to close into melee.

    VIGILIST
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    1. Wow I can block ranged attacks - shield is pretty powerful
    2. Ok so finally something is using my blue bar, that is going down but I also have a semi circle for my shield blocks - it was all pretty confusing as to what is doing what
    3. While holding up my shield constantly was penalized - both blue circle and bar go down, when faced by the alchemancers default bot attack it was very easy just to time my blocks with the shield and never use up more than a sliver of my blue
    4. Not only that but I could switch to melee and be actively comboing and fighting my opponents and the blue bar is quickly regenerating

    Ward Strike

    1. Seems strange I be shooting shields as an attack - I would rather throw a spear

    Disperse

    1. Seems small area of effeect to actually affect opponents

    Iron Dome

    1. Hard to tell what this does - the bots ignore you while its up so not sure if opponents can get inside it or not

    TINKER

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    Hook Shot

    1. Seems a little counter intuitive that a defensive specialist would actually want to pull opponents towards you - I would imagine that should be a Taurant ability. I would probably prefer something that slows people down so I can lay a bomb or put up a turrent

    Proximity Mine

    1. I guess this is more useful in team objective
    2. Showing the (1) seems redundant since you only get one of them anyway

    Dervish

    1. Wasnt clear if the evasive jump actually evaded attacks aimed at me


  • Ok so joined the team objective server.

    Government

    1. So it kicks off and I see A and B, but at first I’m confused because CMW always says “capture” or something else.
    2. Anyway I run over to A, nice visuals showing it is captured. I run over to B and capture it. Now I am confused as to what to do next - there is A and B but doesnt appear that we are done yet.
    3. Going back and forth to typing this up and back to game it hung at that point forcing a restart but when I got back in it was on a new map so maybe the server restarted

    edit later I joined and found the game starting another objective - a push the bomb. Reached a door and then had an objective to capture that was right next to the attack (probably not fair). Anyway seems like there is more content but need some organization on how to test it.

    Ravine

    1. Ok captured the two points A and B, then I was at a lost what to do next. I think the reason is the objective says +2 as if you need to get more - but then you realize the flashing bar is increasing so I figure out that I just hold them. Contrast that to a CMW which is much more visual in showing you your progression of an objective.
    2. So I think for both maps it needs to say something like “capture and hold the shield generators”

    I see this is very early - just two maps and a single objective which are pretty generic. Overall the artwork and setting is pretty, I can explore the maps in full another time. What makes a good map is side objectives and different ways to contribute to the objective.

    I recall someone saying the game is designed only for 6 v 6. I dont see that at all, I think it could easily be 12v12 on larger maps.

    Melee specifics for grunts, feints, hit boxes, windup times I will leave to the experts. I do think that is important to refine, and needs to apply to magic as well as weapons.

    Sunked City

    1. Found this later, looks fairly early stages of design - I spawned and no HUD objectives until I moved closer in one direction. Another capture and hold objective… objectives need to be more diverse and interesting and in keep with the setting. CMW stoneshill we burn houses and kill peasants for a reason, we break into a castle. Hillside we are doing “capture and hold” put the goal is to destroy trebuchets. We need to get a more immersive set of objectives and map design other than just “capture and hold xyz to move to new objective”. Objectives barely show up and the place looks empty.

    Although I am not big on “lore” I think I realize now there needs to be lore, a solid setting, a communication to the player as to what this is all about, why are we doing this team objective - are we overthrowing the government? In CMW we already have a medieval setting which most people are familiar with. Here right now it seems were are funny looking people running around a random place, there needs to be context to the battle, with that it lends credibility.


    At a high level, what made CMW so compelling was that I can play the game without any HUD, without an information except the visual feedback that was in game. I can look at exactly how bloody my opponent is and know that with a kick or two he is dead. I really dont want a Star Wars Battlefront type semi circle in the center of my screen to tell me how much I can block my opponent.

    Overall, this has so much potential because you are taking the awesomeness of CMW melee and adding magic - which opens up the game to enormous potential.

    However IMHO you have to take a step back and make sure you have guidelines to what “anything” is.


    On Magic

    We (us geeks) like magic. We like gandalfs magic, we like harry potters magic. Gandalf works his magic through his staff, his magic is very limited - he is not a dungeons and dragons wizard with a spell book he cant just do anything, rather he can use his willpower in limited spells - expel an evil wizard from a king, intimidate a hobbit, launch a brilliant white light to blind an orc army.

    That is magic.

    Aragorn, Boromir, Gimili, Legolas, they dont have magic, they rely upon their physical skills.

    Mirage you are creating a character class that can do both.

    I dont think you should do this because it flies in the face of what we know, what we accept.

    We accept magic, but we understand that to perform magic you have to dedicate yourself to a wizardly school (harry potter) or member of a grand order (gandalf).


    Vigilist

    Not sure of the background but you look at the character - I have a shield and a spear. Strong and able to withstand magic because of my shield to protect myself from a fireball. If I get close you better run magician. Who does this remind you of - I am Achilles, I am legendary because only arrow in the heel will bring me down.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ62frK74u0&nohtml5=False

    I understand the current version of vigilist is very different - but creating a dome shield is too similar to Princess Leia in SW Battlefront - its just not realistic in your setting. An Achilles based character that is just tough, throws deadly spears, can protect himself from ranged with his shield, and is overall a tough tank would be better.

    Taurant

    Ok so this is a tough melee type which dishes out a lot of damage. But he has this boulder that he conjures up and throws around? The slam, a spinning attack ok, but for a ranged attack he needs to throw something he actually carries, not just the ability to summon up and floating boulder. Have him spin a spiked ball around on a chain for whirlwind without having the camera spin him to do one ability, have him throw hand axes or something not boulders.

    Alchemancer

    Phoenix - so this is really a Dumbledore type - the phoenix reference is too strong. “Big Blast” is really the 40 year old classic “Fireball”. RIght now you can block his paltry main attack so this class is not a powerful mage, rather a weak apprentice.

    Vypress

    The person I want to be is an Artemis Entreri. I want to use the shadows, come up behind my opponent and stab them in the back. The Dash doesnt work - I looks like Neo in Matrix and it is the last thing an assassin would want to do. Rather than a “phase spell”, they should be allowed to slip into the shadows to obscure people from seeing them so they can come up from behind and stab them in the back. Keep people on edge and nervous - looking around them - that creates tension in the game.

    Tinker

    As I mentioned before provide abilities/utilities/mundane things that slow, stun or otherwise do “crowd control” but is not a front on combatant.

    From the theads I perused later it appears a HUGE amount of focus on mechanics.

    Mechanics.

    Yes the melee mechanics is what set CMW apart from other games, but it was the overall experience and setting and feeling in being inside a medieval world that made it believable.

    You are creating a new and unfamiliar world to place this setting into - so I would suggest both making the classes believable and the world something that can be recognizable (like Halo, like Tomb Raider) in terms of what appears realistic within the settings. Dungeons and Dragons worked because people understood the vision, Game of Thrones uses subtle magic and a medieval setting to achieve that - the magic is not random nor fantastic - it works within a setting we can believe and grasp.

    I dont think a large number of changes are needed, I just think less Neo, less warriors doing random spells will make it more compelling.



  • @gregcau

    It sounds like you were able to get the bots to actually attack, how did you do that? When I’ve spawned them previously they just stand there :/



  • @ColonelAxeman said:

    @gregcau

    It sounds like you were able to get the bots to actually attack, how did you do that? When I’ve spawned them previously they just stand there :/

    Maybe you were on a different build? Mine is posted at the top. This is in the training room, I didnt seek out the bots on the TO maps. They would attack if within maybe 25 feet of you.



  • Yep, bots seem to work now!

    Also, solid review, lots of good points.

    One thing in regards to the phoenix draggable spell - I realised by accident that if you press Q again, the egg will hatch and a phoenix will launch out of it in the direction you’re looking. So give that a go.

    Definitely not clear that that is how its meant to work though.



  • @ColonelAxeman said:

    Yep, bots seem to work now!

    Also, solid review, lots of good points.

    One thing in regards to the phoenix draggable spell - I realised by accident that if you press Q again, the egg will hatch and a phoenix will launch out of it in the direction you’re looking. So give that a go.

    Definitely not clear that that is how its meant to work though.

    Oh I see, yes I was able to get it to work somewhat, I had to throw the egg straight at a bot then press Q and something happened - sometimes a fizzle, sometimes a phoenix, I was eventually able to kill a bot but obviously its a work in progress.

    As a wizard it would be easier if I cast the spell, the egg rolled out on the ground (so it doesnt break) and then the phoenix hatched and went after my “marked enemy”. That way when an egg comes out all your enemies sweat a little bit and you can focus on your next spell. Just an idea off the top of my head.



  • @gregcau
    While whirlwind might be annoying in first person, it’s actually a really good ability. It’s quick and really fluent with the battle.

    The wings after clicking rmb as an alchemancer is his force push, he doesn’t have a parry right now.
    Draggable: terrible name indeed, guess you figured out how it works though.
    Teleport: It has somewhat of a visual indicator, you can see that blue thingy appear as you’re in teleport windupwhich is where you will appear.

    Dash: if you move your mouse the attacking part will change direction.
    Phase is actually a lot better than one would think, I agree that it defo needs to be possible to chose a direction, or just leave it standing there. But it is very useful when the enemy uses a projectile attack, and you just phase through it and get into their face suddenly.

    Ward Strike: It is supposed (According to the description)to also protect against incoming attacks, I doubt it does that though.
    Iron dome: Protects against projectiles.

    The Tinker’s Grappling Hook can be used in a combo with the mines, dragging your enemy into them.
    Mines: You get 3 of them, not 1.
    I agree with you on dervish, it seems a bit odd with the evasive jump, it just seems to be a jump straight up into the air which would get your feet cut either way.



  • @Xylvion

    Alchemancer, I see - there really needs to be something to tell you when you can use that RMB again, otherwise I just mash it until the cooldown is over
    Teleport - ok I see the blue target, that works fine then just didnt notice it before

    Vypress, ok I got dash working a bit better - but it feels terribly exposed, even the bot can stab me as I actually do an attack (which interestingly makes the ability circle go Red)

    Tinker - oh I see you start with 1 mine and then it builds up to 3, that seems a little strange.
    I guess the grabbling hook would be useful if you were protecting a spot and wanted to drag them off a ledge or something

    Vigilist ward strike - playing around with it more it does seem to protect you - if you get the timing right, the bots weapon will more or less pass through you.



  • @gregcau

    I think there is a little icon at the bottom center of your screen as you’ve used the forcepush (RMB)with the alchemancer. But I think that @Vesros mentioned that the class will have a parry later on in the development as well.



  • yeah I noticed later, that works.

    well since 3 or 4 of us were on - mostly playing Sunken City it certainly becomes a different experience than testing with bots.

    Sunken City itself, is an interesting map. I found that the Alchem was difficult for say a Taurant to deal with once the mage got to a high up spot. The Taurants boulder is very slow and easy to evade.

    Tinker became a fun class with the bombs and hook - no doubt will be even better when the two teams are actively vying for an objective. The phoenix I saw the popup saying Q to drag but still couldnt figure out how to use it properly.

    Overall very fun to play, but its going to take hours upon hours to figure out the balance lol

    I noticed spears will go into the walls, but I’m thats been identified



  • Overall very fun to play, but its going to take hours upon hours to figure out the balance lol

    For sure, I don’t even know what was ping related and what wasn’t when we played, some things were really fishy though.

    If the taurant had the charge ability available atm it wouldn’t be that much of a problem to catch up to alchemancers, that ability was/is amazing. The current probs with the alchemancers is that he can continue attacking even if he’s been parried, coped with the fact that he himself doesn’t have a parry.



  • General fishyness is something that we’re actively working on. There’s been a lot of changes over time to the mechanics so there’s still some legacy stuff we have to be sure to remove. Just last week we found that you were actually able to parry with your weapon model which could make parries very inconsistent, and that the Alchemancer’s mustache had collision (which was at no point a combat mechanic, but was, nonetheless, hilarious).



  • @TBPhoenix Now I’m expecting the alchemancer’s mustasche to be his main melee weapon.



  • But what damage type would it be? Roguish good looks?



  • @TBPhoenix Sounds more like Rouge to me c|:^)



  • So I guess this is called taking the high ground

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  • Ravine Team Objective

    So I tested this some more using the create game TO-Ravine_P

    Objective 1 - Capture Seals

    1. Warmup, this is fairly long 30 seconds. I like that the cooldowns are slower but not sure what happens during that time for TK% damage (if that exists). I assume it is a 30 second FFA but that was removed from CMW for the reason that players would continue to attack each other after the warmup timer expired.
    2. Defenders are 20 seconds from objectives, attackers 30 seconds. That seems quite reasonable.
    3. It seemed strange that after capturing both objectives nothing happened.
    4. I think the timer ran out and then it went on to the next objective - not sure if that is how it is intended to work - are you supposed to hold it just at the end of map or for a certain length of time (in which case no indicator)

    Objective 2 - Bombs

    1. The objective says steal all 3 arcane artifacts but really I’m going off to pick up a bomb
    2. After getting the bomb - I go to A and it says there is an explosion but when I pick up the bomb again it still shows A and B to complete
    3. I dont think the flag symbol is great to use - perhaps a bomb symbol
    4. It seems to complete the objective you bomb either A or B 3 times. I would imagine that would be tough to defend since it can be delivered to either and the bomb explodes quickly


  • Government Team Objective

    Objective 1 - Shield Generators

    1. Similar to Ravine looks like you hold the first two shield generators for some amount of time before it goes to the next objective - again nothing to tell you for how long (or if that completely gets reset by enemies)

    Objective 2 - Bomb
    2) I think having two indicators for how far the bomb has progressed is redundant - the lower one is no really needed
    0_1460321499640_progress.png

    Objective 3 - Capture
    3) As I said before not sure where the opponents spawn is but that objective is right there easy to gain

    Objective 4 - Bomb
    4) Not much more to say except overall the artwork is very very cool for all of these maps



  • Oh I see now, if do a create game with a TO map it doesnt show the blue bar with the +2 when you are completing the objective.
    But it works when you test the maps on that 1 server we can join.

    I notice that you progress the blue bar with only one captured.

    Starting to get the hang of my egg throwing and phoenix launching. I think what throws me off is that it says “start dragging” but it appears the phoenix will just shoot at whatever you are pointing at when you click Q.


  • Developer

    @gregcau if you tap it once it’ll fly towards your aim, if you hold it you can control the projectile


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