Character feedback - Build 50384



  • I will not include the Entropist this time as he’s been unavailable for quite some time.
    I also tend to forget the names of abilities, but with only three of them it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out which ones I mean.


    Taurant:

    The weapon: feels a bit long at times and hard to judge the distance of it. The class itself is really good at side-stabbing/overheading. Right now I’d say that melee is the most fun as a taurant because of how the drags work.
    The voice commands: are awesome - they are with all classes - I don’t really like the warcry animation though, looks weird and doesn’t really fit with what he shouts most of the time.
    Sprint animation: looks weird, I just don’t like it. (Mostly has to do with the second wind stuff instead of sprint from earlier builds.)
    Overall it’s a fun class to play and equally fun to fight against.

    Abilities:

    • Rock Throw: It’s fairly balanced, really good at mid range, but quite hard for the attacker to parry - could have to do with inexperience - as it’s really quite fast as it enters release. It’s completely useless at facehug as there’s no way for you to really perform it without getting flinched. And it’s also terrible at long range as it’s so easily avoided.
    • Whirlwind: Quite an okay skill, but very hard to parry on facehug. It seems that if you start it right in front of the opponent and continue to walk forward you will hit them at the back of their head or in some other weird way. Also not being able to riposte fast enough after it’s been performed is slightly dull - yet understandable because the animation/attack continues and leaves the user vulnurable.
    • Leap Slam: It’s a great ability as you can get to higher locations, while also being a great way to neglect fall damage, or just use as an aerial assault on opponents. It could use a bit more air control however, but I guess that might be a thing for other abilities instead, such as charge which worked wonders for jumping into the air pre-pax-build.

    Alchemancer:

    It’s boring atm, just boring.
    Attacks: might not seem too fast, but when your opponent has to parry, parry, parry, parry, riposte, and then get hit in the face by the next attack regardless, it’s not fun.
    Force push: does it even do anything at all? Completely useless and it made alchemancer vs alchemancer the most boring aspect of the game right now.
    Voice commands: defo the best voice commands of all the classes.
    Sprint/walk animations: Fit perfectly with the class, never change them.

    Abilities:

    • Draggable: After it’s been slowed down it’s actually quite a decent ability, but the fact that a regular lmb deals 10ish damage less and can be dished out a lot faster kinda makes it obsolete atm. nonetheless my fav alche skill as of right now.
    • Big Blast: An okay skill, great for getting enemies around corners, or a bunch of them at once. the extended range on it is great. I’m not too found of the self damage from it, but it kinda makes sense.
    • Teleport: Cooldown is way too short, the skill itself is really great, but being able to teleport as often as you can is a pain in the ass for other classes chasing you, especially a taurant that can end up chasing you across the map but never getting close to you. (It’s understandable now since there’s no way to parry for the alchemancer)

    Vypress:

    Weapons: why must she dual wield? I don’t understand the reason for it. It was a terrible decision for the viking in DW, it’s a terrible decision now. I’d rather she’d have the same attack animations as the tinker for now.
    Sprint: looks ridicolous, not as bad as taurant though.
    Block strength: Way too low, parrying 3 attacks and then you’re out of juice basically.

    Abilities:

    • Dash Attack: An okay skill, nothing special about it really, seems a bit slow and sluggish though, but it’s a great move to use as a sidestep->attack/force ftp on the enemy.
    • Shuriken: 3 is 1 - or even 2 - too many, the cooldown is too short. Right now when fighting a vypress you just have to be vary of shuriken throws every few seconds. if you parry 1 and try to riposte a ranged ability the 2nd shuriken will hit you. I’m not a big fan on the no flinch either, but with the current speed/cooldown/amount of them it shouldn’t flinch. Also the damage is a bit high imo, but that may not matter if there’s less of them
    • Phase: Just now it glitches out at all times so I can’t really judge it properly. But it’s a great ability to get to higher places than otherwise possible, or to get behind your enemy.

    Vigilist:

    Weapon: Somewhat hard to judge the distance of it, although I enjoy using it, seems somewhat like the taurant as it’s possible to drag it properly.
    Shield blocking: But why, should make it similar to the other classes parries, a parry and not a held block. With a shield you mostly hit the opponents weapon out of course, so basically a parry.
    Sprinting: looks like angry walking and not sprinting.
    Voice commands: Probably the least fun of all the classes.

    Abilities:

    • Ward Strike: A great ability which is both easy to parry, and easy to hit with.
    • Disperse: Still somewhat useless because of the low jump that can be interrupted, should be around the leap slam height instead. It’s only really useful at facehug as a riposte.
    • Iron Dome: Best skill ever, the pushback is amazing, if you paly vigilist vs vigilist and the opponent tries to use disperse, use iron dome to knock them back and cancel their attack, enemy too close to your face? use iron dome. The cooldown may be a bit too long, but I’d need more teamplay experience before I can say for certain.

    Tinker:

    Weapon: Feels like a great 1handed weapon.
    Sprinting: although not optimal, it doesn’t look as strange as with most other classes.
    Where’s the old hair at? it looked awesome on the tinker, the short hair ofc.

    Abilities:

    • Grappling Hook: Still a bit hard to notice an enemy using it, especially when dervish has the same “click” noise. More telegraphing would be great.
    • Proximity Mine: The new cooldown is quite nice and somewhat needed, being able to place them around corners, tricking my opponents to walk into them is great fun. I’m not too fond of the self damage from them.
    • Dervish: I don’t like it, Halo stab was a lot better in its earlier stages imo. The extra reach on it is okay, but the jump you do before it - which has no control and is easily interrupted -, and the boring low control stab at the release phase makes the ability somewhat antifun. There’s no weight behind the attack.



  • Pretty much agree with all that, the issue I find with the Vigilist leap is that it goes straight up so you cant send it in a particular direction.



  • You bring up some good points that I would also like to expand on and bring in another perspective.

    Dervish as it is sharing the same noise as Grappling hook is very confusing, especially because it doesn’t seem like there’s anything mechanical happening when she performs that attack, yet it makes a distinct mechanical click sound. The ability to combo off the Dervish attack means that if a player intentionally misses with the attack, and someone parried at the missed Dervish, the Tinker combo’ing off the Dervish will hit the defending player in his parry recovery, 100% of the time. Similarly if Tinker was hit she can use her Dervish to interrupt combo attacks. It’s quite bad for the flow of combat atm.

    Alchemancer default attack being a projectile is frustrating. Recently the testers on US side had a 4v4 and double Alchemancer became the BIGGEST pain, almost as bad as double archers in Chivalry. The amount of projectiles he throws out is simply too much. I strongly believe his default attacks should be melee attacks, while his abilities are focused on projectile warfare. This is a character whose far too specialized for his own good, making him largely unfun in the one aspect that makes this game unique: deep melee combat. In numbers he can quickly detract from the feeling of a melee game by putting out so many projectiles that other players can’t tell whose hitting them and from where.
    Alchemancer force push deflects projectiles, very useful and extremely strong when done right. It can also be used as a safe fall mechanic. I think he needs this ability, it’s as addicting as using Pyro’s blowback from TF2.

    Taurant voice is currently Entropist’s voice, which is why it doesn’t match the character.

    Tinker grappling hook comes in fast, but is entirely reactable. I quite like its current implementation, and I think it requires some adjusting for players to get used to parrying it.

    On the topic of Block Strength, you mentioned several times that it’s way too low. I agree, and especially in a 4v4 setting it becomes a huge limiting factor in what you can do in a fight. Right now parry juice is playing too large of a role in combat, and in a game like this I feel like there isn’t a need for it. Some thoughts on the problem of parry power as a game design decision:

    • It punishes players for successfully defending against an attack
    • Parry into parry punishes players for pulling off a very strong defense against multiple opponents, and is by no means easy
    • If stamina winds up reappearing tied in with feints, missed attacks, jumping, and parrying: the player should only lose significant stamina for missing attacks, not for parrying or feinting. As feinting acts as an intermediate for performing certain defensive maneuvers, and that combo feint into parry is necessary to survive multiplayer encounters, it should not have a strong limiting component as it will be necessary to perform in fights as the fight changes quickly and unpredictably. The unpredictable nature of melee fights requires player adaptation that should not be limited because of the magical stamina bar dictating the end result.
    • The glowing orbs that players drop on death should regenerate stamina/parry power in addition to the health boost it provides.

    In finality you brought up how the sprinting animations look funny at the moment on a few characters. I know this is an alpha so I won’t lambast the current animations, but I will say that all of them except for maybe Tinker remind me a lot of the Chivalry flail knight sprinting animation. It looks like a power walk more than it looks like a sprint. Alchemancer sprint in first person could use some arm movement, as currently I can never tell if I’m sprinting or not with him.

    Great post Xylvion, and definitely I agree with most everything you’ve written here.



  • Speaking of block power and parries, I’ll get back to making a topic about that a bit later. Finally been able to play with a decent-ish ping on the EU server that @gregcau so kindly set up. And I can tell that there’s a huge difference between the two servers, on the NA server I couldn’t parry ripostes and a lot of attacks just seemed to phase through my parry, but on the EU server there’s no major problems right now - except that I panic parry every time gremp uses phase at facehug. So with the EU server I can finally make some valid points on critical game mechanics: parry, riposte, abilities, attacks, feints.

    Sidenote: doing altOH feints as a taurant is awesome, he basically spins the mace a full 360.

    Also what gauntlet said about the alchemancer, would be nice with some first person animations while sprinting, aka arms flailing.